A False Step

[poliphilo]

I got a savaging on a Feminist forum the other day. It was my own stupid fault. I'm too old to run with that particular crowd. Besides, I didn't study the subject at university and I don't use- or respect- the jargon.

I consider myself a feminist. If feminism means believing in the equality of the sexes, I'm enthusiastically for it. 

But I should have realised that the gnomic, slightly mischievous comments I go in for aren't going to wash on this particular site (with its ginormous rulebook)- and that you can't challenge someone (especially if if you're a white male) in that culture of victimhood without being accused of  "exercising privilege" and "silencing" them. 

A black American woman had accused a white European woman of racism. The white European woman had replied that the black American woman wasn't taking cultural differences into consideration and that her view was "US-centric". At least I think that's what had happened. The mods then intervened to rule that if a black person accuses a white person of racism that is gospel and no comeback is possible. The white person must take her whipping in patience and humility and afterwards kiss the rod.

I said I thought this was unfair- and that US-centrism is a real issue.  Are black American women really so fragile that they need protecting from all disagreement? Isn't it kind of insulting to assume they can't hold their own in debate?

I'll admit I didn't express myself as clearly or fully at the time. I spoke off the cuff. I should have been more careful- not that it would have made much difference if I had.

I thought I'd stir up a bit of controversy. I was wrong. The pack turned on me and tore me to shreds.

I am- among other things- a white, cracker racialist who likes to wave his dick around.

I'm talking about this here because after a while I realised there was no point in trying to explain myself over there. No-one  was interested in debate, only in parading their righteousness and calling me names. When you're in a hole it's foolish to go on digging.

I'll admit I felt a bit sorry for myself at first- but I'm over it now. I took a nice walk round a lake yesterday and had fish and chips in a garden centre and visited with my niece and nephew and that sort of cleared my head. 

Comments

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Your support means a lot.

I've been in denial. I knew I was low status. But I've been creeping round that site, nodding sagely every once in a while and I guess I'd got my confidence up. I guess I thought I'd been accepted. More fool me.

[wyrmwwd.livejournal.com]

If there are a lot of Lesbians on the site (and there probably are), then men have no status at all. This is because men have status everywhere else, and Lesbians have a very complex, even brutal, social hierarchy. The rules are different from the straight world, for one thing. But, men have no status at all, and they will all turn on you, completely forgetting that they were locked in battle with each other 2 seconds before. Of course, as a straight man, you actually like women, and you are apt to get your feelings hurt. I am sorry for that. I have seen it happen many times. But Lesbians can be brutal, even (maybe even especially) to one another as well. It is because we select for the strongest among us, so they can do things like fight in the Supreme Court for marriage rights.

But I, myself, have been ostracized before for being "too male identified", and that puts me back into the straight hierarchy, where I have virtually no status as a Lesbian.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

You're opening my eyes here. I had no idea lesbian culture was so cut-throat. Or maybe I sort of knew and was in denial. Even in the early days the separatists in their dungarees were kinda fierce and hostile and scary.

[wyrmwwd.livejournal.com]

Watch "The L-Word". It is a fairly accurate representation. BTW... Lesbian Politics was the true reason why I left L.A. 14 years ago and moved to the opposite coast.

Watch kittens play. Thay can be really rough with one another, because they have the skin for it, and they all have the same set of weapons. But, if you try to play with them the way they like to play, you have to be really careful, because you can really get hurt.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I don't think we get that show over here- more's the pity.

And you crossed the country to get away from it all- I'd love to hear that story. Have you got it blogged somewhere?

[wyrmwwd.livejournal.com]

I write about it all of the time, but you have to know what you are looking for to see it. 6 of the players in that drama currently read my blog, that I know of, possibly more. So, I am kind of careful about what I say and how I say it. I am going back to L.A., and I don't want it to happen again.

"The L-Word" is on DVD. Maybe you can rent it. If you do, and you find yourself saying "no one would really do that...". No, really, most of the stories are stories that I have either lived or seen lived before me.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'll have to start reading more carefully between the lines. I sort of guessed there was something going on in the background.

I'll have to look into getting hold of The L-Word. I seems like it's something I need to watch.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons why I left Now is that lesbian agendas were taking top priority, while issues of interest to me and other straight women (or just PLAIN "women" whether gay or straight) were being ignored. It has always confused me that lesbians led the fight for abortion on demand, for example. What possible reason would they have for that? By the way, I do have friends who are lesbians, but who have also disassociated themselves from the feminist movements.
I always thought that "feminist" included women of ALL persuasions,as well as males of ALL persuasions who supported women's causes. Somehow it got turned around and came to be regarded as a lesbian thing.

[wyrmwwd.livejournal.com]

This is hard for me to address because I don't have enough information. What is a "lesbian agenda"? What issues are of interest to you and other straight women that lesbians ignore? I can tell you why lesbians led the fight for abortion on demand. It is because, as a lesbian, I am not likely to accidently get pregnant. Therefore, if I AM pregnant, and I didn't go to great lengths to get that way, then it is probably because I was raped by some homo-phobe who thinks that I all need is "some good meat". I have no intentions of passing on those genes, period (and, no, don't care about the "innocence of the child"... not interested).

I am still a feminist, and I will tell you why. It is because women still make only 73% of what men make, and since I am not likely to have a man in my life to elevate my economic status, I am not satisfied with the life that my gender has so far forced onto me. Secondly, I really DO believe that Hillary Clinton is more qualified to be president of the US than Barack Obama, and the only reason Obama won, is because Americans are still not quite comfortable with a woman being in charge. This is pure sexism, and if I don't stand up against it, no one else will. These do not seem like "lesbian agenda issues" to me, unless you are happy to make less money and spend your life in support of others. I am not content with that.

The reason why there are so many lesbians in the feminist movement is, simply, we have no way to elevate either our social or our economic status through a man. Therefore, feminist issues effect us in a very big way every single day. And, yes, we get tired of it.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

Thank you for telling me the lesbian stance on abortion. I have no problem with that viewpoint. My problem is when straight women use it as a form of birth control when there are other methods that work very well if only they would use them. Abortion should be a rare alternative, but it has become a "normal" way of life.
I championed Hillary Clinton, not just because she is female, but also because I like her platform, and trusted her to be strong enough to carry it out. I do not feel the same way about Obama. However, I like McCain even less.
About money - I have no one to support me financially - I have been on my own for about 20 years, all but the last five of them working for a very modest living. Now I am retired on the lowest income that the government allows a retiree to have, Social Security plus Supplemental Security Income. I make out very well on it. All I have ever wanted is food, shelter, and clothing and a little bit of play money. I finally have it all now that I no longer work. Ironic, isn't it?
I cannot put into words what I mean by lesbian agenda, other than to say that at those early meetings, the topics championed almost unanimously by the lesbians were for the most part of no interest to me, while my own issues were either ignored or shouted down. No hard feelings, I just parted company with NOW.
If I have upset you with my comment I apologize. I did not mean to offend, just to state how I think and feel. I believe in and champion the rights of free speech, and I reject the "PC police".

[wyrmwwd.livejournal.com]

That may not be the "official" stance on abortion, but that has always been my stance. I was very active in the Pro-Choice movement in the 80s, but I was very selfishly terrified that I would lose my right to an abortion and then be raped and get pregnant. Now, having said that, in this day & age especially, I fail to see why so many women get unexpectedly pregnant. I mean, when I was a teenager, many girls didn't know how it happened. But with birth control so readily available, it is hard for me to understand why women aren't just more careful. I made a choice not to judge, but rather, to do what I thought was right.

I didn't mean to attack, but I am really curious about what it was that the lesbians championed that was irrelevant to you. In my mind, abortion rights were always central to giving women control over their own bodies and their own destinies. But it seemed like it was more likely to be used by straight women than by me (and, that is true... I have never had an abortion, and, in fact, have never been pregnant).

There are 2 events in the history of the lesbian side of the women's movement that are of interest. One is that, at some point (possibly after you left), lesbians became very disillusioned with NOW because of what they perceived as homo-phobia. That happened really before I came onto the scene. Later on, moving from the late 80s to the early 90s, Feminisms went from 2nd Wave Feminism to 3rd Wave Feminism. This happened because a spit occurred in the Feminist Movement between the Anti-Porn crowd and the Free Sexuality crowd. The first believed that pornography (and, in fact, high heels, sexy underwear, even skirts) and certain sexual practices legitimized male domination. The other side said that policing women's sexuality was oppressive, and that women should be able to express themselves freely sexually any way they chose. (BTW, I was on the latter side).

This feud led to the collapse of 2nd Wave Feminism and into what we have now, which is the 3rd Wave.

I am sorry if I came down kind of hard. I was tired. I was just interested in dialog.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

No offense taken here, and no apology needed. Actually more of this kind of conversation is needed. And men should be included, too. Just look at the sheer number of responses Tony got to his opening post here...Wow!

[wyrmwwd.livejournal.com]

All is well. I hope to be informative. I think Tony has learned more about lesbians in the last 2 days though, than he ever wanted to know! :)

[red-girl-42.livejournal.com]

It has always confused me that lesbians led the fight for abortion on demand, for example. What possible reason would they have for that?

That doesn't seem strange to me at all. Not any more strange than a man, like Tony, being a feminist and fighting for women's equality.

People often fight for the rights of others who are being oppressed, even if that oppression doesn't personally affect them.