A False Step

[poliphilo]

I got a savaging on a Feminist forum the other day. It was my own stupid fault. I'm too old to run with that particular crowd. Besides, I didn't study the subject at university and I don't use- or respect- the jargon.

I consider myself a feminist. If feminism means believing in the equality of the sexes, I'm enthusiastically for it. 

But I should have realised that the gnomic, slightly mischievous comments I go in for aren't going to wash on this particular site (with its ginormous rulebook)- and that you can't challenge someone (especially if if you're a white male) in that culture of victimhood without being accused of  "exercising privilege" and "silencing" them. 

A black American woman had accused a white European woman of racism. The white European woman had replied that the black American woman wasn't taking cultural differences into consideration and that her view was "US-centric". At least I think that's what had happened. The mods then intervened to rule that if a black person accuses a white person of racism that is gospel and no comeback is possible. The white person must take her whipping in patience and humility and afterwards kiss the rod.

I said I thought this was unfair- and that US-centrism is a real issue.  Are black American women really so fragile that they need protecting from all disagreement? Isn't it kind of insulting to assume they can't hold their own in debate?

I'll admit I didn't express myself as clearly or fully at the time. I spoke off the cuff. I should have been more careful- not that it would have made much difference if I had.

I thought I'd stir up a bit of controversy. I was wrong. The pack turned on me and tore me to shreds.

I am- among other things- a white, cracker racialist who likes to wave his dick around.

I'm talking about this here because after a while I realised there was no point in trying to explain myself over there. No-one  was interested in debate, only in parading their righteousness and calling me names. When you're in a hole it's foolish to go on digging.

I'll admit I felt a bit sorry for myself at first- but I'm over it now. I took a nice walk round a lake yesterday and had fish and chips in a garden centre and visited with my niece and nephew and that sort of cleared my head. 

Comments

[mummm.livejournal.com]

I'd say that you got involved in an extremist situation that really is a pretty silly/vicious group. They are a horrible representation of "feminism", and humanity for that matter if they behave in such a way! They sure are not doing themselves any good.

[heleninwales.livejournal.com]

I think you did the right thing. Sometimes walking away is the best answer.

It's a tricky issue that you were discussing when it all blew up and I think you made a valid point, but I can also see why they turned on you, even if I don't feel they should have done so.

[solar-diablo.livejournal.com]

Are black American women really so fragile that they need protecting from all disagreement? Isn't it kind of insulting to assume they can't hold their own in debate?

Depending on the group, it's not just black American women. There is most certainly a carefully cultivated sense of victimhood in American culture that nearly everyone feels entitled to. It's not too difficult to tease out of a genuine concern and grievance over oppressions past and present. All you have to do is look for the "I'm more oppressed than thou" mentality. Or do what you did - wade into a community where you either conform to an ideology/opinion as dogmatic as anything white landed Christian patriarchy espoused, and attempt to call for a calm, reasoned, objective critique/discussion. For future reference, Tony:

- As a male your opinion counts only half as much.

- As a Caucasian you must halve that half again.

- You may score some points for having been pagan once, but you also were once fully invested in organized Christianity. Halve it again.

- Finally, you're straight. Your opinion is now worth 1/16 that of, say, a lesbian woman of color who practices Dianic Wicca.

To be fair, I suppose the argument can be made that like many derivatives of political correctness, such groups are not designed for open and honest discussion. They are there to provide a shelter, an identity, and a therapeutic palliative to those who may or may not have been hurt by "The Mainstream" (however one may define that). They are not there to create a sense of equality with those different from them, at least for the time being. If you feel it's worth your time to express a view in such society, then good luck to you. For me, I've got perfectly good walls to beat my head against in the privacy of my own home.

[wolfshift.livejournal.com]

If feminism means believing in the equality of the sexes

In my experience, it means nothing of the sort.

[mazzie.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe you've opened up a can of worms here, then.

The reality, as ever, lies somewhere in between the extremes.

[unbleachedbrun.livejournal.com]

"Culture of victimhood," real or imagined, explains it all.

[ex-redrain.livejournal.com]

I agree with many of the comments above me. I read the rules to that community -- that's a nasty environment all around.

[glitzfrau.livejournal.com]

I'm really sorry you had that experience. Like you, I feel that US-centrism is a real issue.

I've ceased to call myself a feminist any more, precisely because of encounters like this that make me realise that I know too little about feminism to identify with the movement, and because I fear it may be an exclusionary, repressive white ideology in itself. If I'm not fighting both against male oppression and against feminist blindness to their own privilege, I should just shut up and call myself an overpriviled white European middle-class woman, and be done with it. So that's what I'm doing now.

[wyrmwwd.livejournal.com]

You read my blog, so you know that I am one of the most feminists women out there. I will tell you. I would have gotten the same treatment for that one (well, more or less, since I technically don't have a dick to wave around). You can't go there with that crowd. It is a no-win situation. It is, sadly, one of the reasons why I left the Dianic Tradition (that, and the fact that I had a bad habit of studying magick with men). This falls under the category of "unwritten rule that is strictly enforced". As a male, you have virtually no status in that group... and, my status is suspect. Don't take it personally.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I can see why they turned on me too. I was asking for it. I should have known better.

I was way out of line.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

Nor in mine, alas.

Well!

[jubal51394.livejournal.com]

This "US-centric" is mortally offended!

I wanna know why... if you're such "a white, cracker racialist who likes to wave his dick around", how come I never once got to see it?

You playing UK favorites... or what? ;)


(if you post a picture, I'm "unfriending" you, fair warning)

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's an excellent analysis.

You're right. The community is as much a refuge as anything. People are there to have their wounds bathed, their frazzled nerves soothed and their opinions validated. It's not a forum for frank and open debate.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Which saddens me.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'm beginning to understand why so many young women refuse to identify as feminists.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Well, yes.

One takes an extreme position in the hope that a compromise will be reached by reasoned debate.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

They are not my tribe, as I have had cause to discover over... and over... and over...


...and over...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It's a newish idea to me. I'm going to have to explore it further.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The rules keep piling up- and they make free discussion almost impossible.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'm loathe to drop the label. It's precious to me. When I was a vicar I used to go round with one of those clenched- fist-within-a-female-symbol badges pinned to my cloak. I was a freakin feminist before most of these women were born.

But I can see that I'm well out of the swim. There's a whole literature out there I haven't read and- quite franlky- don't want to read.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Your support means a lot.

I've been in denial. I knew I was low status. But I've been creeping round that site, nodding sagely every once in a while and I guess I'd got my confidence up. I guess I thought I'd been accepted. More fool me.

Re: Well!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

No chance of that. I think we'll keep those pictures under lock and key :)

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've been calling myself a feminist since the late seventies. I used to wear a clenched fist badge on my clergy robes.

I guess I was fooling myself.

But I hate to renounce the label. It's a precious part of my identity.

[wolfshift.livejournal.com]

What I find frustrating is that there is no other word to use in its place. We don't really have any other label for a belief in or activism for equality of the sexes.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've been calling myself a feminist since the late 70s. The shadow side of the movement was always there- but I did a great job of averting my eyes.