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Religious movements swiftly go out of date. They begin by challenging the status quo, then, once society has caught up with them, slip into conservatism as they defend their aging insights against the onrush of the new.

Wicca began as a challenge to the mores of the 1950s. It was always a little old-fashioned- with a whiff of geriatric naughtiness- and was soon overtaken by the sexual revolution of the 1960s. It was reinvented in the 70s, by Starhawk and others, as a vehicle for left-wing protest and feminist assertion. Now, unless I'm missing something, there's nothing much left in it except a nostalgia for ye olden dayes.

Charmed is the monument erected over its grave. If the US entertainment industry thinks something is safe for the mainstream, you can be pretty certain it's no longer prancing and kicking.

Date: 2005-02-02 06:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackiejj.livejournal.com
When we experience an overwhelming spiritual moment, we never want it to end.

There's a great example, in the New Testament, when Peter (I think) wanted to erect tents at the spot where he'd seen a vision of the Elders.

"The glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai."

"Lord, it is good to be here."

tents

I guess what I want to say and am meandering away from is that all religious movements have their start with a moment of miracle that we want to keep. Maybe it's not a miracle, just a wave of joy, or a changed life. But something major happens, and we want to be able to reopen that door.

Sadly, most miracles take us by surprise.

As you once wisely said (I hope I paraphrase correctly): Ritual's purpose is to set up the atmosphere to open the door to miracle again.

But mostly we can't do it. The door may open, but we don't see it. We're fixated on the candles.








For example

I think a wonderful image, very apt, that explains the reason spiritual moments get instantly crystallized into religious doctrine

Date: 2005-02-02 06:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com
I love the tents.

Yes, you can't institutionalize vision or joy or any spiritual thing.

Wicca was a great event in the history of the 20th century, just as Methodism was a great event in the history of the 18th. Of course the movement will continue- just as Methodism has done- but (barring a new miracle) it no longer has the capacity to challenge and surprise.

Date: 2005-02-02 06:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catvalente.livejournal.com
That's a very cynical view--I wouldn't say it's at all true. Nor do I require a religion to constantly surprise me, as though it were a cliffhanger television show. But in any event, I don't see why you seem to view it as such a dead and stagnant thing. Unless you mean Wicca alone, and not polytheism as a whole, in which case I might agree, as Wiccans in general have gone over to the dark side of organized religion little different than Methodists.

Date: 2005-02-02 07:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com
Polytheism is ancient and deep and is never going to go out of fashion.

I remain a polytheist.

Wicca is what I know of neo-paganism. It's the group I belonged to for ten years. I think it has lost the plot (though I'd be happy to be proved wrong.)

Date: 2005-02-02 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catvalente.livejournal.com
Since I'm not Wiccan, I'm not in a place to help you with that. ;)

Date: 2005-02-02 07:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackiejj.livejournal.com
There's a charismatic minister of an independent Florida church who's bringing in the crowds in Florida--he gets 25,000 people at his Sunday services.

He's been called a blend of motivational speaker and minister. He's always smiling, talks about time management.

It's a new religion for the 2000s: optimism, practical ways to use the Bible's messages to be happy and productive.

But it's got to be more than that. Like Billy Graham, it's partly the messenger: they offer the gift of personal surprise in a person life--in short, a sense that a miracle is taking place.

Dangerous, when a religion is centered around a person.

What happens when those 25,000 people show up, and their miracle-channeling pastor has retired?

I'm still beating my same drum--I know so little about the movement of Wicca that I can't comment intelligently. But it seems to me that the movement surely arose because, as you say, Methodism and other mainstream religions had become so crystallized and institutional that there was no longer "the capacity to challenge and surprise."

What will be next? There will be something.

My thought is that charismatic preachers who are making amalgams of mainstream conservative Christianity and Coveyspeak are the transition phase--they are making Christianity exciting again, promising new lives.

Date: 2005-02-02 07:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com
I think Wicca was chiefly about reclaiming sexuality and the Female principle. It is (or was in its Gardnerian form) a Goddess centred religion.

Who knows what happens next.

Are those guys making Christianity exciting again or are they diluting it? It seems to me that they are working an accomodation between Christianity and the crassest kind of materialism. I find it hard to see them as a source of hope.

Hey- quite off topic- I've just got myself one of those Holga cameras. Wot larks!


Date: 2005-02-02 07:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackiejj.livejournal.com
Hey- quite off topic- I've just got myself one of those Holga cameras. Wot larks!

Welcome to Upsidedown Land, where the skies are always turquoise or cobalt blue and treetrunks orange or shot with ambient light!

Speaking of miracles: you are about the see your world utterly changed.

We should be getting our next batch of film soon.

Loading the camera is a bit of a trick in itself, your first challenge with Holga!

Lucky for you, there are all sorts of websites available to help you--just Google "loading Holga camera" or something similar. Hint: a little piece of cardboard will help when you're trying to get the long piece of film to advance--

Date: 2005-02-02 08:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com
Gosh, is it that tricky?

Our camera came with a roll of black and white film. I'm now wondering what on earth to go take pictures of. A run-down cemetery would be nice, but we don't have any of those within walking distance.

Date: 2005-02-02 09:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackiejj.livejournal.com
I found rather quickly that a busy, dark background will turn into mud via Holga--for example, a yard covered with oak leaves.

Our best shots--admittedly, we've only used one our one free roll so far--were made with a simple subject (big enough--not an apple on the ground as a center of interest! Which failed me!) and a relatively uncluttered background.

Holga does wonders with clouds! Try getting a big sky with clouds!

And I'm going to try putting a bit of vaseline on a square of clear plastic, and taping the plastic over the lens for a couple of shots, to see if I can get a surreal bloom!

Date: 2005-02-02 09:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com
Thanks for the tips.

We're going up town tomorrow to do some shopping. Maybe I'll load up Holga and take her with me.

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