poliphilo

I was one of the guys who worked to get paganism accepted as a "mainstream" religion. And now that it's respectable I no longer want to know. What a contrary old cuss I am!

That's not entirely true. I still subscribe to a spirituality that is part Pagan, part Christian, part Zen- I just don't belong to any organization these days.

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solar-diablo.livejournal.com

We've a bit in common in that respect. I hate to admit it because I don't like the label "buffet spirituality" when it comes to what I believe, but I am nevertheless inspired by the wisdom of several paths: Buddhism, Christianity, Paganism, Yoga. But something seems to happen with all of them when they're placed in an organized, institutionalized setting, and as a result I've been on the sidelines so to speak for some time now. There's a damned if you do, damned if you don't predicament that's presented to any revolutionary message the moment it's about to be co-opted by the mainstream - remain outside and be forever relegated to an impotent fringe, or be co-opted and lose your fire.

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You're exactly right. That's the dilemma.

Mao tried to create "permanent revolution". It didn't work- and millions of people got hurt in the process.

I don't think the fringe is impotent though. It's at the fringe that the discoveries are made- which the mainstream then assimilates.

In some ways things like Charmed make me happy. It's nice to see those ideas being absorbed.

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Wicca began in the late 19th century, invented by a fellow by the name of Gardner.

And Wicca may be fairly lame and have devolved into a bunch of heirarchical, dogmatic, organized folks with high self esteem issues, but the calm, quiet, unassuming pagan--even one who knows the root of the word and uses it with a rueful smile--does exist. Maybe that's the revolution--we don't have to wear our religion around our neck, studded with magic crystals.

And that young lady will never be on TV.

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but the calm, quiet, unassuming pagan--even one who knows the root of the word and uses it with a rueful smile--does exist. Maybe that's the revolution--we don't have to wear our religion around our neck, studded with magic crystals.

I like this.

I was young in the middle of the time of hippies, and for a while I wore long peasant dresses and paper necklaces--even went barefoot off to have my first child.

Having children made me settle down a bit, become much more conventional if not conservative. I'm still a hippie in many ways, even though I'm now a little old grandmother. But it's on the inside, simmering.

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I used to wear my pentacle every day and in myriad other ways behave much as some of the sillier pagans one finds on LJ. When I was 15 and didn't know any better. For Christians, Pagans, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or what have you, it is almost criminal not to bother to understand the history of the religion that controls much of their daily lives. Wiccans/Pagans--and Wicca is hardly the only brand of polytheistic, culturally varied religion out there--must be as honest with themselves as they expect monotheists to be. Otherwise, they're just talking out of their asses.

If I miss Samhain this year, it's not shocking--though some would say I'm a bad pagan--any more than if I missed church some Sunday. I no longer feel the need to advertise my faith, though I will talk about it if asked. I think most people in most religions find the simpler, less showy side of spirituality eventually. Despite the rhetoric, we're a young faith, after all--it may take some time for us to mature a bit.

In the meantime, we really ought to try not to sound as stupid as we do, as often as we do. And remember that Mormonism was all the rage at one point, too.

And that's all I have to say about that. ;)

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It's important that Wiccans should understand their true history. The best book (maybe the only book) to tell it like it really was is Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon.

I regard Gerald Gardner as one might a reprobate old uncle. He was very brave and very mischievous and very naughty. I love him a lot.

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I'll definitely look into that one.

As much as the idea that Wicca is itself the oldest religion is ridiculous, I think it is appropriate to note that Gardner did not invent paganism (defined as the polytheistic worship of pre-Christian gods) and while most of the knowledge of ancients good and bad is lost, one is perfectly capable of praying to Athena without invoking St. Gerald at her side. I do not, and have not for many years, consider myself Wiccan.

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I am fond of St Gerald- and think we owe him a huge debt, but, no, he didn't invent Paganism; he didn't even invent neo-paganism; there were thousands of people there before him. It has a history going back at least as far as the Renaissance (and dear old Poliphilo.)

In my later years as a "Wiccan" we had moved a long way away from Gardner and were running what was essentially a pagan temple dedicated to Hermes, Aphrodite and the Unconquered Sun.

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eva-d-struction.livejournal.com

"Despite the rhetoric, we're a young faith, after all--it may take some time for us to mature a bit."
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I always thought Wicca was "the Old Religion," so I am surprised at what I have read in this discussion!

Eva

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That would be the rhetoric. Starhawk is no historian, whatever else she may be. :)

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Paganism is "the Old Religion". But Paganism isn't a single religion but a term that covers a myriad of different cults and mysteries.

People in ancient Rome didn't think of themselves as Pagans (a slang term invented by early Christians) but as devotees of Aphrodite or Mithras or Isis or Whoever.

Wicca is a modern Pagan cult (or family of cults) with a history that cannot be traced back beyond the 1940s.

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Gardner came out of the broom cupboard c. 1950. He was in his 70s by then. All the evidence suggests that he (and a few mates) concocted Wicca over the previous decade.

I'm an unassuming (quasi)-pagan these days. But I was waving my staff and swinging my pentacle all over the media throughout the 90s.

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When we experience an overwhelming spiritual moment, we never want it to end.

There's a great example, in the New Testament, when Peter (I think) wanted to erect tents at the spot where he'd seen a vision of the Elders.

"The glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai."

"Lord, it is good to be here."

tents

I guess what I want to say and am meandering away from is that all religious movements have their start with a moment of miracle that we want to keep. Maybe it's not a miracle, just a wave of joy, or a changed life. But something major happens, and we want to be able to reopen that door.

Sadly, most miracles take us by surprise.

As you once wisely said (I hope I paraphrase correctly): Ritual's purpose is to set up the atmosphere to open the door to miracle again.

But mostly we can't do it. The door may open, but we don't see it. We're fixated on the candles.

For example

I think a wonderful image, very apt, that explains the reason spiritual moments get instantly crystallized into religious doctrine

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I love the tents.

Yes, you can't institutionalize vision or joy or any spiritual thing.

Wicca was a great event in the history of the 20th century, just as Methodism was a great event in the history of the 18th. Of course the movement will continue- just as Methodism has done- but (barring a new miracle) it no longer has the capacity to challenge and surprise.

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That's a very cynical view--I wouldn't say it's at all true. Nor do I require a religion to constantly surprise me, as though it were a cliffhanger television show. But in any event, I don't see why you seem to view it as such a dead and stagnant thing. Unless you mean Wicca alone, and not polytheism as a whole, in which case I might agree, as Wiccans in general have gone over to the dark side of organized religion little different than Methodists.

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Polytheism is ancient and deep and is never going to go out of fashion.

I remain a polytheist.

Wicca is what I know of neo-paganism. It's the group I belonged to for ten years. I think it has lost the plot (though I'd be happy to be proved wrong.)

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Since I'm not Wiccan, I'm not in a place to help you with that. ;)

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There's a charismatic minister of an independent Florida church who's bringing in the crowds in Florida--he gets 25,000 people at his Sunday services.

He's been called a blend of motivational speaker and minister. He's always smiling, talks about time management.

It's a new religion for the 2000s: optimism, practical ways to use the Bible's messages to be happy and productive.

But it's got to be more than that. Like Billy Graham, it's partly the messenger: they offer the gift of personal surprise in a person life--in short, a sense that a miracle is taking place.

Dangerous, when a religion is centered around a person.

What happens when those 25,000 people show up, and their miracle-channeling pastor has retired?

I'm still beating my same drum--I know so little about the movement of Wicca that I can't comment intelligently. But it seems to me that the movement surely arose because, as you say, Methodism and other mainstream religions had become so crystallized and institutional that there was no longer "the capacity to challenge and surprise."

What will be next? There will be something.

My thought is that charismatic preachers who are making amalgams of mainstream conservative Christianity and Coveyspeak are the transition phase--they are making Christianity exciting again, promising new lives.

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I think Wicca was chiefly about reclaiming sexuality and the Female principle. It is (or was in its Gardnerian form) a Goddess centred religion.

Who knows what happens next.

Are those guys making Christianity exciting again or are they diluting it? It seems to me that they are working an accomodation between Christianity and the crassest kind of materialism. I find it hard to see them as a source of hope.

Hey- quite off topic- I've just got myself one of those Holga cameras. Wot larks!

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Hey- quite off topic- I've just got myself one of those Holga cameras. Wot larks!

Welcome to Upsidedown Land, where the skies are always turquoise or cobalt blue and treetrunks orange or shot with ambient light!

Speaking of miracles: you are about the see your world utterly changed.

We should be getting our next batch of film soon.

Loading the camera is a bit of a trick in itself, your first challenge with Holga!

Lucky for you, there are all sorts of websites available to help you--just Google "loading Holga camera" or something similar. Hint: a little piece of cardboard will help when you're trying to get the long piece of film to advance--

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Gosh, is it that tricky?

Our camera came with a roll of black and white film. I'm now wondering what on earth to go take pictures of. A run-down cemetery would be nice, but we don't have any of those within walking distance.

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I found rather quickly that a busy, dark background will turn into mud via Holga--for example, a yard covered with oak leaves.

Our best shots--admittedly, we've only used one our one free roll so far--were made with a simple subject (big enough--not an apple on the ground as a center of interest! Which failed me!) and a relatively uncluttered background.

Holga does wonders with clouds! Try getting a big sky with clouds!

And I'm going to try putting a bit of vaseline on a square of clear plastic, and taping the plastic over the lens for a couple of shots, to see if I can get a surreal bloom!

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Thanks for the tips.

We're going up town tomorrow to do some shopping. Maybe I'll load up Holga and take her with me.

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damn and blast...this is a wonderful conversation and i want to spend more time here (unfortunately i am at work and need to quit screwing around

jackiejj says Sadly, most miracles take us by surprise.

i have to disagree with that. it's true that miracles often take us by surprise, but i don't think it's sad.

when i was a senior in high school i had to come up with a motto for my yearbook entry...it was "expect a miracle."

miracles happen all around us every day...and if we are lucky we can have a hand in helping a miracle happen.

i too am a zen pagan. i lit candles for brigid this morning before work...i have a go with the flow life (although occasionally the river gets dammed...)

poliphilo i think you are maybe a little cynical...charmed is a more sophisticated version of bewitched...

bright blessings and i will try to come back to this discussion later when i have time to think...

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halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com

[info]poliphilo i think you are maybe a little cynical...charmed is a more sophisticated version of bewitched...

no, it is not. Or, I respectfully choose to disagree with that statement.

I have read this discussion with great interest, but I find there are words I want to add and can't quite come up with them. I think that one thing demonstrated here is that religion is a personal thing, and we need to be comfortable with the way we believe.

I'm still unable to breathe, perhaps my thoughts show that.

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Sorry you can't breathe yet! (Neither can the Pope, this morning.)

Okay, you've given me something here: "religion is a personal thing."

Yes. Absolutely.

When people go into bars, there are usually no windows. It's usually dark inside.

The world is shut out so that the mind can loosen itself from the everyday.

Same for going into church: regular glass that looks out onto a parking lot is exchanged for stained glass with pictures of saints. The world is shut out.

There's a difference in bars and churches--there's no ritual in a bar--but, still, we're trying in both to be liberated from everyday thinking. In bars we do this chemically to the brain, and smooth the way to freedom with darkness and atmosphere.

When we go to church, surely we must take some hope for a surprise, for a miracle, in the door with us ("Lord, it is good to be here.")

In short, it's easier to be taken by a miracle in a place that is charged with energy and hope, perhaps, than, say, in the shower at home.

And there is group energy. I have felt it. It is extemely potent. It's partly emotion. It's partly expectation.

Expectation: that's the word. That's what the structure and the words provide. You can go to the Faith Promise Freeway Primitive Baptist Church and experience a miracle. Your life can be changed.

Not because they all handle snakes with reverence, but because YOU "expect a miracle."

Which makes me wonder, all over again: what is a miracle?

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halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com

In short, it's easier to be taken by a miracle in a place that is charged with energy and hope, perhaps, than, say, in the shower at home.

YOu see, I don't agree with you about the inside of a church being charged with energy and hope. I find energy and hope when I stand in a forest surrounded by trees and growing things. I find energy and hope when I stand on the shore of Lake Ontario and watch the water - especially in the surging waves of a windstorm. I found energy and hope when I stood ankle deep in the water, the red sands of Prince Edward Island beneath my feet, and watched the sun come up. I found energy and hope in the pounding waters of Niagara Falls.

Conversely, I found energy and hope when I stood on the farthest up level of the CN Tower, in the dark, and looked out on the city of Toronto below me, the lights scattered like handsful of glitter tossed across the wrinkles of a child's blanket.

See what I mean?

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Conversely, I found energy and hope when I stood on the farthest up level of the CN Tower, in the dark, and looked out on the city of Toronto below me, the lights scattered like handsful of glitter tossed across the wrinkles of a child's blanket.

See what I mean?

Yes. I do see. Lovely imagery, too.

I was following a train of thought about why we set up places apart. For some people, those places aren't necessary.

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like i said, i was talking out my ass, so disagree away and i will bow to someone with superior knowledge ;)

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I'll admit I haven't watched much of Charmed. I see it as a cheaper version of Buffy (which I loved.)

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as i don't watch charmed and didn't watch buffy, i am talking out my ass regarding tv shows...

however, i think that you should know that, whatever you are doing faithwise now, as an activist you have done great good for the "pagan community," whatever you perceive that to be ;)

i have trouble codifying my rituals, because i am not wiccan and i don't really follow a particular path...my goddesses are as varied as brigid, kwan yin, spider woman and eris.... (i still think eris gets shafted) and while i don't have the discipline to be a solitary anything, i don't want to really share my feelings and beliefs with anyone who might make fun....

at least when i was a methodist, nobody made fun of me....

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Do you have a shrine?

Here's a picture of me and Ailz at work in our temple

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sort of...we have a small altar to bast in our living room...and a cat buddah on the mantle. i have small bits and pieces...

...we used to practice religiously (if you'll pardon the pun) but tc lost heart when his eyes began to go bad. he gave up his membership in the lodge (a small group of kabbalists...) and we don't do regular circles the way we did when it was just me, tc, and sean...

...cheron is more faithful, but she is solitary and marcey isn't particularly comfortable with our rituals...

here is a quote that i serendipitously found while i was eating lunch...

Work and house and errands and physical fitness and activities and things. The expediencies of every day. This cannot be all there is.

Something more is calling. It is of the past, it embodies tradition, yet tradition is only the vehicle. It is of the heart, but it is more than diffuse sentiment. Some of it is dimly remembered, yet remembered for a reason.

It is a coherent way of life and the taste of home. It is a way to teach the children right and wrong, consciousness, history, and an appreciation of all we have. It connects them to their garndparents and mine.

It is an ancient religion. It beckons, and half the time I am not even sure why. Its rituals tantalize and will not be denied.

What is the lure of ritual when passionate believe is hardly ever to be found, when fulfillment of ritual is a matter of choice? It is more than the preservation of an empty vessel. It is the conviction, deep and unspoken, that ritual, the vessel, contains a precious substance, though I cannot name it. My ignorance is the problem, not that of the vessel.

Why do I, having long ignored the rituals, yearn in their direction? Some of its caretakers ave been those I loved best and respected most. I cannot forget them. I start from there. Miriam's Kitchen-a memoir Elizabeth Ehrlich, ISBN 0-670-86908-2

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We gave up ritual when it came to seem like we were repeating ourselves.

But for several years ritual was a great delight.

Some of the best times I've ever had were in that temple.

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dirtynumbangel.livejournal.com

I had no idea TC studied Kabbalah... hmm.

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several years ago...he has studied LOTS of difference topics...he's a bit of a renaissance man.

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I realized after I hit the "submit" button that my sentence came out wrong. What I meant was, it's too bad ("sadly...") that we can't simply arrange for miracles--miracles are surprises.

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eva-d-struction.livejournal.com

"miracles happen all around us every day...and if we are lucky we can have a hand in helping a miracle happen."
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Kitten, this will crack you up...I read the above as "if we are lucky we can have a hard-on helping a miracle happen."

Oh, God, maybe I *am* getting better after all.

And BTW thanks for the signpost to this most interesting discussion!

Eva

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