Fathers And Sons

[poliphilo]

I kept away from my father. I wasn't living as he wanted me to live and it was horrid to enter that atmosphere of disapproval and judgement. Also we had nothing in common. I'd visit and I'd get a migraine. 

I don't suppose he ever understood why I was so offish with him. He'd given me a wonderful education, hadn't he?

"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child."

And now I'm getting the same offishness from one of my own kids. Like the man said, "You reap, reap, reap what you sow."

I don't mean to complain. I don't want sympathy. Please, please, no sympathy. This is how it works between the generations. 

My father had a love-hate relationship with his own father. The old man wouldn't let go. He loomed over my father's life offering counsel. Maybe that's why my father stood so far back with me. He didn't want to make the same mistake. He didn't want to be oppressive. 

Maybe I'm oppressive.  I don't mean to be.

Once they're dead they're easy to forgive. 

Men are prey animals, scared, scared, scared. The more patriarchal we seem the more frightened we are.  We're just king-pin bunnies- scanning the shadows for movement, listening out for the hawk's wings in the sky.

Comments

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

No, no sympathy but yes, empathy to a great extent. Fathers and sons, mothers and daughters.

The more patriarchal we seem the more frightened we are.

And the more frightenING we are to them, even when we don't think we're patriarchal/matriarchal, much less oppressive, we are often perceived as just that. Yes, that's how it is between generations but it disconcerts us when we find ourselves disconnected from our children's lives in the most absolute of ways.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The last thing I ever wanted to be is a patriarch. Patriarchy is one of my least favourite things. But it creeps up on one, doesn't it? It's like Shakespeare says in the 7 Ages of Man speech- it's as if we were foredoomed to play out these successive roles.

At times like this I feel I'm caught up in a game/a drama/ a charade I never signed up for. I want to say, "OK, lets just cut the crap. This role playing weirds me out. I'm not bad old dad, I'm just me. Lets deal with one another like fellow humans..."

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

My thoughts are very much like yours in all this. It does seem that no matter what we do we are predestined.

And I actually did say something very similar to my daughter to what you want to say. It didn't help a bit. We are, in their eyes, always "bad old mom or dad" first and foremost, never just a fellow human being.

And did we ever think of our parents as fellow humans? Perhaps at our our age we do but I'm not so certain sometimes.

[solar-diablo.livejournal.com]

I think I started realizing my parents were genuinely human when I got into college.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've got to a stage where I can see my parents as ordinary human beings- but only if I screw up my eyes and squint.

[le-oef.livejournal.com]

the "battle" between father and son should at some point in the maturing relationship turn into a dialog, sometimes it may be a heated one, but just an exchange of ideas. and afterward the son who is slowly getting wiser will hopefully say "alright that was fun. thanks for your perspective. see you next sunday dad!"

i place the fault on the person who gets offended.
it's staying mad and hurt which messes things up. it seems that usually its the children who get offended....
but i suppose theres varying degrees of offenses.
my dad was oppressive and we fought but i can't say he was terrible to me. maybe if he was "terrible" i would be saying something else.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I made my peace with my father just weeks before he died. Phew, that was a close call.

With my son? I haven't really fallen out with him. I just want to be treated with a little respect. I don't mean the respect that a son owes his father, but simply the respect one human being accords another if social relations are to run smoothly.

[suemars.livejournal.com]

i guess there just comes a time in life where you try to figure things out, theres not much time left to do that. i always wonder if i played enough, loved enough, gave enough to my kids. did my parents do the same?
too much thinking. my friend said she'd never met anyone who loved there kids like i love mine. but did i?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

We're only human. No-one trains us for the job of parenting. We all more or less muddle through and no-one gets it completely right.

We have to forgive ourselves and move on. I thought life would become easier and less challenging once the kids had grown-up and left home but that's just not true.

[suemars.livejournal.com]

forgiving others is easy, yourself? really hard.
but you are right, i always wanted a book to come with the new baby. with rules and suggestions on how to do it. you are right, its harder when they are grown. i think its the letting go part thats really the hardest thing.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Letting go is terribly hard. You still feel responsible- even though you "know" they're now fully grown-up and earning better money than you ever did

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

I don't have kids (although that was not my choice) so maybe I have some objectivity. People expect kids to be little empty versions of themselves, all ready to be filled up with parenty goodness. So many people try to fulfil their own expectations or correct their own mistakes in their children. The surprising thing is that children don't often "take after" either parent, psychologically. They are not what their parents expected. They may have remarkably little in common with you. If you met them as strangers, you might not choose them as your friends.

And most parents never ever forgive themselves for not being perfect parents. Or alternatively, there are parents who never give parenting a second thought. At least you are not that type.

Go on loving and accepting them (I read your posts where you had your grown up son living in your house and I think you were patience personified). They will get it one day.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's right.

There's a fine line to be walked between being oppressive and neglectful. I can't really know how my kids see me. I think I was a liberal parent (too liberal perhaps) but it's quite possible they experienced my personality as overpowering.

I'm feeling guilty now for letting my patience wear out.

[solar-diablo.livejournal.com]

My father and I got along famously when I was growing up, mostly because I was a quiet child and stayed out of his way. Puberty changed things a bit and I went through a rebellious phase, but now he and I have good-natured if distant relationship.

Perhaps one of the reasons I was happy I didn't have a son was this whole father-son dynamic. Still, I see my 10 year-old daughter going to her mother for secrets, boo-boos, and heart to heart talks and it's a little disconcerting. Apparently I am there for rough housing and watching movies together, and that's it. "She venerates you" is my wife's reply to my concerns, but I don't see it. It'll be interesting to see how puberty changes the dynamic between all three of us.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The dynamic always changes with puberty.

My daughter and I bond over shared interests now. She's in the process of writing a book about alternative spirituality. I have two roles to play here: 1. As "my dad the witch" and 2. As a fellow writer.

Here's a good thing about kids: they surprise you.

[msjann65.livejournal.com]

My mother is 91 years old. After many years of trying to get along and failing, followed by many more years of estrangment, we got together again about fifteen years ago.
Amazingly, we are still getting along well together.
Thank God my mother lived such a long time - it gave us time to resolve our differences and to be free to just love one another.
Meanwhile, my daughters and I are not speaking, but my son and I are doing fine. This son is not doing so well in his relationship with his father, although I do beg him to call his Dad. After all, nobody is getting any younger.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's the thing about families. It's a long game. While there's life there's hope. You can shut false friends out of your life and have done with them but you can't ever really do that with relatives.

[mummm.livejournal.com]

It's good to be Queen. *L*

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

And some families are wonderful. Yes, I know. I've been accentuating the negative.

[mummm.livejournal.com]

We work with what we get. It seems to me that you would be a good patriarch.