Update

[poliphilo]

Events have moved on. Pastor Jones has suspended his book burning. In a statement to the media he said he'd done a deal; in return for his backing down the controversial New York mosque (only it's not a mosque) will be moved away from Ground Zero. A spokesperson for the Ground Zero mosque said it was the first he'd heard of it.

What I'd like to believe is that Jones' meeting with real-life Muslims- who seem to have treated him with respect and courtesy-  has knocked him off balance. Of course there's been pressure from all over. It must be disconcerting (even as it feeds your vanity) to turn on the TV to hear the President of the USA denouncing you.

In a country that cares less about liberty and free speech Pastor Jones would have been arrested or firebombed or mysteriously made to disappear by now. Last night I called this story "a carwreck of the human spirit". I spoke too soon. What we've seen over the past twelve hours is the application to a festering psychic wound of reason, courtesy, kindness- and they seem to have made a difference.

Comments

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

Seems to be the best possible ending to the story.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Perhaps the media circus will now move on...

[chiller.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're right. If you'd been right, this pastor would have said "I was misguided, I had applied a blanket belief to Islam when in fact most Muslims are decent people, and I am sorry for causing good people hurt." In fact what we saw was a man who realised that the rabble-rousing he started had pissed off some very important people, so he made up some further self-aggrandising lies so he could run off and hide in obscurity again, once he realised how much trouble he'd started.

There is no decency in this story, and the only thing that pastor has learned is that he isn't big enough to weather this kind of shit-storm.

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

Allowing the idiot pastor to save face by appearing not to have backed down might be a sensible thing to do.

[chiller.livejournal.com]

Allowing him to do that by telling the world the "mosque" "at" "ground zero" wasn't going ahead was a mistake.

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

I think he has made that up himself, not sure anyone actually said it.

[chiller.livejournal.com]

The point is, he's stood up and said that he has an undertaking from one or more Imams to that effect. When the mosque goes ahead, all the people who want to believe that Muslims are double-dealing people who seek to undermine the US will point at this and say "they went back on their word!"

I think the way the pastor has handled this has been enormously cowardly. He needed to say "I was wrong, I take it back," and set a loving example to his followers.

[clindau.livejournal.com]

I think that setting a loving example to his followers is the last thing on his mind.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

I thought it wasnt a mosque, but rather a "cultural center". Newspeak?

[chiller.livejournal.com]

No, you're right. It's a cultural centre. But everyone just sees 'Muslim' and calls it a mosque.

What bothers me about this is: why shouldn't Americans have a mosque and go and worship in it, if they want to? Isn't freedom of religion kind of entrenched? Do these people think that American Muslims are somehow not American? Can we kick those people right in the face? Can we?

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

I will supply the boots.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

In the UK at least, they're pretty interchangable terms, as the same building is used both as a house of worship and a focus for community activities.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

My point exactly. Muslims of my acquaintance also used the term interchangably here as well.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

Similarly, I always refer to my place of worship as "the pub", even though many different kinds of hostelty, public house or bar may be involved.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Even if that's the case I think it's an acceptable outcome. The decency isn't so much in anything Jones has done but in the measured reaction from those in America- from the President down- who have had to deal with him.

In the interview I just saw (on the lunch time news) Jones looked and sounded shaken. I think he's had the wind knocked out of him.

[chiller.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised. It must have felt like waking a sleeping dragon, and suddenly realising ... hang on ... it's a DRAGON.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

He's not very bright- he's just a small town bully- and he's gone in way out of his depth.

[michaleen.livejournal.com]

Obama's "measured reaction" is why I voted for the man and continue to support him, albeit sometimes under duress.

Here's my guess: Jones was contacted privately by some authority figure capable of commanding his respect -- ie, a military officer of flag rank, probably -- and was told in no uncertain terms that this publicity stunt would kill US solidiers in the field. If his being shaken is any indication, there may have been stronger tactics used, such as threats of public condemnation by high-ranking military personnel as well, should he persist.

Honestly, though, anything is possible. For all I know Rahm Emanuel flew down there personally and threatened to hack up Jones's family with a machete and feed them to the fist. This country passed beyond the law and the profits nine years ago today. There really is no telling.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

If I'd been in the White House I'd have gone down the military officer route. I think Jones would be open to the line that he is putting American lives in danger- as indeed he is!

[michaleen.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is my thinking, as it seems most probable. It would be pointless attempting to appeal to Pastor Jones's humanity. Appealing to his militarism, though, that might work.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

This country passed beyond the law and the profits nine years ago today.

From more recent events, I'd say the only Law now is Profit.

[michaleen.livejournal.com]

I think you are right and profit has been the highest law in this country for some time.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

It's also a sober lesson in the way 24/7 news can pluck a misguided individual such as this out of obscurity, effectively provide his ignorant rants with a world stage and then feed upon the outrage its own bulletins have sparked.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'm reminded of Humbert Wolfe's lines

You cannot hope to bribe or twist
(Thank God) the British journalist,
But seeing what the man will do
Unbribed, there's no occasion to.

A free press is a great blessing, but.....

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

Yes, I remember them well.

Did I mention I used to be a newspaper reporter?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Actually, no....

You must have some good stories then...:)

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

I don't think he has a reasonable...or honest...bone in his body.
He's a hate monger playing up to the media so all the crazies will proclaim him the Messiah.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The reason and honesty haven't come from Jones, but from those who have been dealing with him. In the interview I've just seen- on the lunchtime news- he seemed shaken and frail.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

Yet still arrogant enough to demand the White House, Pentagon or those behind the proposed mosque contact him personally before he'd deign to reconsider his own plans.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I suppose he's trying to save face.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

No doubt. Your characterisation of him in reply to chiller strikes me as sound.

[internet-sampo.livejournal.com]

He's changed his mind; light up the barbecue!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yeah!

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

Thirty people in Florida are members of this fanatic's church.
Thousands of fanatics in the mideast are again calling for death to Christians and are burning American flags. I guess they are including anyone who is Western, non Jewish or non Arab in their death decree. This is supposed to be OK, based on their cultural background of Sharia law (and jihad?) while for the USA to house thirty such nuts is unconscionable in the eyes of the world.
Doesnt anyone sense the irony in this?

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

Thousands of fanatics?

No, it is not ok, but IMHO it is to be expected of a mediaeval culture living in ignorance of the West, which is not their fault, and inflamed by those running a political agenda to preserve their own corrupt regimes.

We in the West can and should do better, one would like to think, and illustrate what Western values are really like.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

One needs to remember that- thanks to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and the USA's backing for Israel- a lot of people in the Muslim world have formed the opinion that America is out to get them. They have some justification, I think.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

The difficulty is that such activities are condoned - and sometimes orchestrated - by the governments of those countries. Their populations therefore have difficulty understanding why Obama can't simply shut this idiot down, and most likely assume Jones has the White House's support.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

According to one BBC report, Jones has based his entire stance on Islam on his viewing of Fox News and similarly right-leaning newspapers. He has little or no grasp of The Qu'ran, and seems convinced only Muslim extremists would take serious offence at him burning a copy. No wonder you could fit his entire congregation into a single-decker bus.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

This conflict- war of civilisations or whatever it is- has been fuelled on both sides by the wifully ignorant (in which category I include several world leaders).

[michaleen.livejournal.com]

Really? So, how big do you think Fox News's viewership is? Two buses, perhaps?

There are millions upon millions of Americans that believe Fox News is the only network that dares to speak truth to power. My parents and most all of their friends are among them. My neighbors and their friends and relatives are among them. Most all of my so-called friends on Facebook are among them, including most of the folks with whom I graduated from high school.

There may not be a majority of US citizens that share Pastor Jones's beliefs about Islam, but there is certainly a vast plurality that do. Collectively, they are the Republican party's core constituency. It is not possible to understand US actions, at home or abroad, without grasping this simple fact.

[stevegreen.livejournal.com]

I am simply stating the fact that Jones has not bothered to research the reasoning behind this event (and I use the term 'reasoning' lightly) beyond watching a channel which, from my experience of it, comprises more opinion than news, and often presents an extremely skewed view of global politics. Of course, I'm used to the BBC, which has balance written into its constitution and is publically vilified on the odd occasion it slips up.

I'm well aware that Fox News has a vast audience, many of whom accept its conclusions and share its views, but my disquiet with that situation is irrelevant here. What's specifically worrying in this case is that Jones' reckless ignorance of another religon and the ramifications upon international relations of burning that faith's holy book may well have put at risk innocent lives throughout the world.

[michaleen.livejournal.com]

Well, the BBC isn't necessarily balanced at all, except by definition. Among other things their coverage of US politics is consistently skewed to the right. Their eagerness to carry water for the Republicans during the last national election was nothing short of shameful, to my mind calling all their reportage into question.

That said, I honestly fail to see your point. You claim to be aware of the situation here in the US and yet seem somewhow surprised to learn that a vast swath of our population is willfully and woefully ignorant and largely indifferent to the loss of life outside the US. All I can say is, welcome to the real America, the one the BBC is at such pains to conceal from your tender sensibilities.