Two- No Three- Things I Want To Say About Lockerbie

[poliphilo]

I broke my fast and looked at The Times on line yesterday. I didn't read much- honestly- because- equally honestly- it was making me feel ill. What especially made me feel ill was an article by someone I'd never heard of saying the Megrahi case had finally killed off the so-called "special relationship" between Britain and the USA- and berating the British government for letting this happen.  I haven't bored you with my views on that issue yet- and I'm not going to do it now except to say two things, very briefly. The first is that Lockerbie has been soused in ugly, disgusting politics since the beginning- and I think it very likely that Megrahi is innocent. The second is that I think it's rather splendid that tiny, little Scotland was prepared to stand up and defy the might of the USA- for whatever reason. Oh, and there's a third- and it's this: that for a nation that's always banging on about how Christian it is, the USA doesn't half have a legalistic, Old Testament attitude to justice! 

Comments

[ibid.livejournal.com]

If the special relationship is broken then I for one will be breaking out Champagne.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's what I think too. In recent years the special relationship has involvd us in a great deal of humiliation and criminality.

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

Co-signed. It really alarmed me that Tony Blair could bring a country into a war it overwhelmingly (by the look of the protests) didn't want to fight.

Even Mr Strange was at some anti-war protest and he's as right-wing as all get out.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It's a war we got involved in because Tony Blair enjoyed strolling round Camp David on George Bush's arm

And just about the only person to profit from it was "Daddy Warbucks".

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

You are not alone in this opinion. As an American let me say that WE overwhelmingly did not want to fight Iraq, either, but were overruled by the power elite.
"We the People" really do not have as much of a voice as we would like. Witness public opinion about national health care vs. vocal minority opinion, backed by the same power elite.

[(Anonymous)]

Indeed. I agree with what you have said. Isn't it amazing how the story has grown since the intital floating of the idea of release...?
Have just got home from a trip to France and realised that the card I got for Ailz's birthday remained unposted - many apologies to Ailz. I sent her a message on Facebook - please could you pass this on to her? Congratulations on your wedding anniversary too. Lovely pictures of your party and of you and Ailz. It looks like a fun do!
love Jenny x

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'll tell her.

Hope you had a wonderful time!

[michaleen.livejournal.com]

I'm an American.

I support and applaud Scotland's release of Megrahi. It was the humanitarian thing to do.

Those who think the "special relationship" more important than their humanity are probably the same soulless types that supported Bush and his holy war.

Those in the US that are outraged by Megrahi's release are indeed those soulless types who supported Bush and his holy war. They are, in my opinion, beneath contempt.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

All governments lie. And the American government is no exception. I don't blame the people who buy the lie- not exactly; I just wish they'd be a little less gullible.

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

Yeah, count me in the "he's innocent" camp. The whole thing stinks and I can't believe they think we're stupid enough not to tell us the truth.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The real story bears little relation (I think) to the "story" that's occupying the headlines.

[jenny_evergreen]

I feel much the same way, but, then, I'm not an American by choice.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I love America, but America's political class are as capable of extreme nastiness as anyone else's.

[lblanchard.livejournal.com]

The notion that the guy is innocent is news to me, but I'm willing to be pointed to the arguments in his favor.

And yes, we're fairly Old Testament about not releasing dying prisoners over here. The only people who get second chances are celebrities.

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

Yes, there have been rumours flying around that the Iranians, not the Libyans, were responsible for Lockerbie as a revenge attack for the bombing of an Iranian passenger plane by the USS Vincennes. Not entirely sure why agreement was made to let Libya take the flak for it but there you go.

[lblanchard.livejournal.com]

Oh, I heard Iran might have been behind the attack, but it doesn't mean it was carried out by Iranians.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The theory is they hired the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine to do the job on their behalf.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

This is part of the problem; I suspect the doubts about the conviction of Megrahi have barely been aired in the States.

I can't keep the details straight in my head (I'd never make a conspiracy theorist) but type something like "Lockerbie, the truth" into the search engine and see what comes up. I noticed in passing the other day that the Daily Mail (mainstream and fairly right-wing) had a big article arguing that Megrahi was innocent.

Iranians

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

you know what as to this about Iranians
I think if they had put away an Iranian people
would be, the same people in fact on both sides
of the atlantic, saying NOOO it was a Lybian
although what they really want is for it to
be a Jew. I am getting heated but I think
I must ask your forgiveness because I am
nervous before flying tomorrow...please
let me go and forgive me.
+S

Re: Iranians

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes, lets let it drop.

I hate flying too :)

jack straw?

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

well it may be a good thing but what troubles
me is first the released notes from jack straw etc
showing, without explicit connection of dots, that
the release was wanted for policy reasons and it
is not far from policy to oil. it is like reading
some tape of a mafia conversation about making a hit
on someone carefully avoiding the direct language.

Re: jack straw?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'm sure oil comes into it. The UK is eager to normalize its relations to Libya.

On the other hand this wasn't a decision made by the British government, but by the relevant minister in the devolved, Scottish Nationalist government in Edinburgh. While I'm sure this was an outcome the British Government wanted I'm not sure Brown and Straw were in a position to put that much pressure on the Scots.

the bp debacle in russia

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

well so they say...
of course they would. to my sense it is odious.
it is an example of something people need
of course to pick up and move on from of course
and learn the better rather than the worse lessons
from(not simply to tighten up lines of communication etc)

I suspect a major background is the debacle of bp in
russia, a friend was there for several years directing
an operation which finally became impossible.

Re: the bp debacle in russia

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

But if Gaddafi wasn't behind Lockerbie the outlawing of Libya is a charade- one we've been keeping up- against our own interests- simply to save face.

I understand BP just made a major find in the Gulf of Mexico. I wonder how that fits into the puzzle.

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

oh Tony forgive me I cant go on with
this which seems to me to be pestilent
rot, not your side of the thing , but mine
and the whole topic... be well.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

And you.

Have a good flight.

new testament

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

secondly... the indication here is that
the New Testament ethic amounts to 'stick
it to the Americans' or at least that this is
a major component. Long time since seminary
but I am not sure of that?

well if his guilt is stipulated(I am not sure
the counter claims are more serious than those
of every man on murderers row writing to a woman
enammoured of the romance of it all...but in any
case let us stipulate it for the moment)
is the release of mass murderers into society when
their health looks bad after they have been in prison
several years a general principle one would think
the way of wisdom?
why put him in prison at all then etc?
the whole thing seems to me to stand only on a
basis of stick it to the americans.

but the oil behind the deal is what makes it odious
to me and ought perhaps to you who are not a big
capitalist in orientation as far as I know.

Re: new testament

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

Yes, the oil deal is a consideration. If he was released on purely humanitarian grounds because of his illness, then hurrah! If, however, it took an oil deal to do it, then shame!

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

well I had not been following it closely
but I was amazed a little at the letters released
which the British government says shows there was
no consideration of politics and economics in the
release and which only in the most literal reading
can hold that but seem to me to demonstrate precisely
the contrary ,that it was a deeply political decision
and if one is going to do that then perhaps they
ought to have destroyed the documentation or
rendered it inaccessible in some way...

governments get caught in the situation that simple
people who allow themselves complicated relationships
do...of saying one thing to one person and another
to another. doesnt work very well.

Re: new testament

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The Lockerbie business is very complicated.

I can't keep the details straight in my head, but there is good reason to believe that Megrahi's conviction was as much a "fix" as his release has been.

Megrahi was planning to appeal against his conviction. By releasing him as and when they did the Scots forestalled a court case that might have been embarrassing to all the governments involved.

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

well I agree on much and perhaps most importantly
on scarcely being able to or even on wanting to
keep the details safe in my head.

my predisposition is to suppose that the innocence
argument is more than likely based on the sort
of revisionism which against all evidence tries to
find the world trade center brought down not
by airplanes but by internal explosion, which is
to say the work of people, anti american? or whatever?
or just paranoid theorists reacting viscerally?,
who want to muddy the waters etc
Let us agree, I think you will, that this is at
least possible although you will assign it a lower
probability than I. I would say about 90%

as to evidential limits and as it were finally
circumstantial evidence, this I would expect can
be involved...it may be a case resting finally on
something like probablities. when probablities are
high enough, as that the sun will come up tomorrow
morning, it is not wrong to base action on them...
or if they are less then etc

I am tiring you out.
myself too.

sorry
+Seraphim

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I never dismiss conspiracy theories out of hand- because I think those in power are capable of anything- but most of them turn out, on investigation, to be pretty screwy. This one is different- and supported by a lot of reputable people.

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

well if the man is likely to be innocent
(and then who was it some OTHER Lybian
intelligence agent to whom he loaned his shirt?)
but I have not followed it closely enough and
there may be a good response... but if it were
so self evident that he is innocent and someone
else ,let it be no doubt an american yid employed
by the cia, then why was not the case reopened?

I dont know tony...but I will bet as we say dollars
to donuts that british petroleum is at the bottom
of this.
+S

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

Tony, you are not telling us Americans anything new. Witness the official attitude toward gays in the military, gay marriage, poor people's material needs, health care for all, and much more. Suffice to say, however, that many of us are fighting those attitudes every day of our lives.
I remember back in the 70's when Jimmy Carter lost his second term for the presidency to Ronald Reagan, largely on the strength of the hostage situation in Iran. The hostages were taken by irate students who were protesting the fact that the USA had given asylum to the Shah, who was dying of cancer. (I wont talk about the strange coincidence of the hostages' release on the day that Reagan was inaugurated.) I guess it's OK to shelter a despot who is dying, but not to release a non-elite prisoner (guilty or not) who is also terminally ill.
Hmmmm....holy inconsistency, Batman!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

According to an entirely plausible hypothesis, the Lockerbie bombing was carried out by the PFLP- a Palestinian terror group- at the behest of the Iranians- in revenge for the shooting down of an Iranian airliner by an American warship.

For some reason or other, it suited the US authorities of the day to pin the crime on Gadaffi and the Libyans. Now that Gadaffi has come in from the cold- and has oil to sell- that decision is embarrassing to all concerned- and a campaign of outrage is being cranked up to drown out the voices of those who would like to see the matter properly investigated.

[petercampbell.livejournal.com]

The Megrahi issue would have fizzled out by now, if the various parties hadn't seen it as an opportunity for point scoring.

Ironic though, if it were to lead to the end of the special relationship, that it occurs at a time when the US has the first decent president in more years than I care to remember?

[lblanchard.livejournal.com]

The "decent president" has no use for the special relationship. He has other special relationships in mind.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

What other special relationships?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It looks like Obama is the first president in God know how long not to be some sort of an anglophile.