Reflections Of A Good Nazi

[poliphilo]

It's only a hundred years or so since men in the West stopped regarding women as property.

Of course I'm talking Law here. In private lots of men still do regard women as property. We've learned to be shocked by slavery, by genocide, but the overwhelming horror of a set-up where one sex dominates and abuses the other hasn't quite hit us yet. We're recovering, we're in denial. The thing is too huge and we're all pretty much incriminated.

So when we sail into third world countries and beat them up for not being like us, we tend not to put women's rights very high on our agenda. Damn it all, you will have a democracy! But the burkha, female circumcision, forced marriage, the denial of education to women- these are all cultural phenomena and maybe it would be a little racist and imperialistic to criticise.

Where women are concerned all men are nazis. Some of us, perhaps, are good nazis.

Comments

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

Where women are concerned all men are nazis...

Statements like that don't wash with me. I do not belief that this discrimination is some sort of original sin for which all males are to blame. We are, surely, part of the male logos, but not necessarily to blame for the fact that it has so often been (and is being) used to oppress women.

Apart from that I think we pretty much agree.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm in an angry mood.

Original sin? Maybe not. But I was born into a very patriarchal world (in the 50s, dig) and the sins of patriarchy clung to me well into adulthood. My first wife (a lesbian who took a long while to come out of the closet) did a lot to get me educated.

Maybe younger men can honestly claim never to have been part of the system that does women down, but I doubt if any men of my generation can.

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

I don't reckon I carry more guilt than a female in a comparable setting and of a comparable age and up-bringing. Women too can become unwilling constituents of the Western male logos, and while I do not claim to be entirely blame-less, I certainly do not find that I should carry any blame on account of my mere gender.

I think the age difference is rather crucial; my school had mainly female teachers (as is common in most European countries, I believe?), and they had all been educated in the 70s and 80s, so I do believe that feminism was a rather strong undercurrent in the environment I grew up in . (Am not even going to go into the family...)

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's fair enough. I was sent to all-male schools and educated almost exclusively by men.

It's true that women share in the guilt. They have often been the worst offenders in the suppression/repression of their own sex. I didn't have these freedoms, so I'll be damned if you will.

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

I didn't have these freedoms, so I'll be damned if you will.

I am not sure that is a satisfactory representation of it; surely the fact that the male logos pervades society to this day, thus encorporating itself into the mind-frame of even the most feministic of women, has more to do with it than the personal unconcsious does.

I think it is rather a structural than personal matter, both when it comes to males and females. It is not the individual attitudes, but the general discourse in society that are the source of the on-going repression of these issues. The 70s did a lot to change this, but obviously this movement has [a] changed its manifestations and "tools" (Women camps no longer seem to have any greater merit towards a goal of universal emancipation) and [b] slowed down as it no longer appears to be the most pressing social and political issue to women.

The question is where any new move might originate. In the West at the moment the only men concerned with gender roles are people such as ourselves; righteous and (according to ourselves) reasonably informed; and it seems many women these days are not concerned about it either, focusing only occasionally on the issue of equality when it touches on their everyday lives (i.e. equal pay, job-security in relation to child birth and so on). So should third-world female emancipation originate in the third world? To say that it can only be triggered by the West brings up Said's Orientalism-debate, but on the other hand it seems unreasonable to expect women in, say, Afghanistan or Egypt to obtain emancipation on their own. It seems impossible either way, but that is obviously not a possible attitude. I can't work it out.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I don't know the solution either. One thing I'm fairly sure is that you don't liberate people by sending your army in.

I place my hope in what we're doing now. The Web allows us to talk across cultural boundaries and circumvent censorship as never before.

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

I agree with the army bit. (With obvious exceptions; we apreciated good old Monty dropping by in '45...)

The Web allows us to talk across cultural boundaries...

Yes, but it still demands a certain affluency in that you cannot access the Web without certain hardware and a connection which might not be the top priority in a small budget... The Web mainly ties together well-off westerners!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's true- but access is spreading. A website that had a huge impact on me (pre 9/11) was the one belonging to RAWA- a women's group that documented the doings of the Taliban from inside Afghanistan.

I haven't visited it in years (shame on me) I really need to go see what they're talking about now.

[glitzfrau.livejournal.com]

But the burkha, female circumcision, forced marriage, the denial of education to women- these are all cultural phenomena and maybe it would be a little racist and imperialistic to criticise.

Unless, of course, it's convenient to do so, when suddenly the evil headscarf is top of the agenda. How many winsome pictures of little Afghan girls going to school in Kabul have we seen in the last year? How many, conversely, of little girls sobbing in pain in Egypt, where over 90% of women still undergo female genital mutilation? Few things make me more incensed than the hypocritical adoption of supposedly feminist agendas to legitimate right-wing wars. The direct link between poverty, repression and the abuse of women are also rarely commented upon. Take honour killings: where the rule of law doesn't prevail, women are more likely to be murdered, as systems of tribal honour become the only means of keeping order.

But sadly, in part I agree with you. Much oppression is structural - perhaps most - but individual men still make individually abusive choices. That said, I'm not sure the word "nazi" is either accurate or useful in this context.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

90%! Christ, I didn't know that!

Nazi? Well I was trying to be provocative. But I think I'll stand by it. The oppression of women by men is a colossal evil that has been going on for all recorded history- and we're largely blind to it. We don't have a language to pin it down. The 70s terms of abuse- chauvinist, patriarchal- have been defused and turned into joke words. And so one reaches into a depleted arsenal for terms that will still deliver a sting.

[karenkay.livejournal.com]

The other day when I was talking to the ET, I mentioned that sometimes I just like to spend time with other women, and I asked him if he ever felt that way about men. I thought for sure he would say yes (partly because he is gay), but he said no. He did say that he has heard a lot of women express the same sentiment, more than men. I guess you've presented a lot of reasons why this might be true.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I have always preferred the company of women and hated the things that "real" men are supposed to enjoy- like gathering in tribes to watch sport.

The majority of my LJ Friends are women and most of my male ones are gay.

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

I could try to be really straight acting if that would improve matters...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

But I don't want you to be straight acting. The (stereotypical) straight man is my least favourite type of human being.

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

My acting skills are rather dismal anyway...

*digs out skull from underneath the piles of books*
To be or not to be, that is the question
Wether 'tis nobler...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I had noticed the resemblance between your user-icon and the young Olivier....

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

I normally only do The Dane when drunk...

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

The (stereotypical) straight man is my least favourite type of human being.

Gee--mine, too!

Ugh.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

"underachiever" is that more cutting than "nazi"?

The nazis, of course, put the underachievers in power.
There's a classic essay by J.B. Priestley (from 1940 or thereabouts) where he says picture all the nasty, creepy, shifty people in your neighbourhood then think what it would be like if they were put in charge of everything and you've got a pretty good idea of what a nazi state is like.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Oh Him- yes, the Ultimate Underachiever!

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

A fascinating thread. Thanks.

I wonder what makes a matriarchal society?

I keep thinking: mothers have all the power at first, when they rear their baby sons. When do they hand over that power? Or when is it taken away?

I don't know the answer, but I'm curious.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

During my Pagan hey-day I was very taken with a book called the Chalice and The Blade, which argued that back in the dim distant past Europe had been wholly matriarchal- and then the nasty horsemen rode in from the Steppes.

Apparently the archaeology backed this up. But I looked at the archaeology and it didn't and I was forced to conclude that the men had always been in charge.

When does the mother lose control of her child? How about it's first day at school?

[catvalente.livejournal.com]

It does match and it doesn't. It is not conclusive. We make a lot of assumptions based on our own bias. But what seems to point to at least pockets of matriFOCAL and matriLINEAR (different than matriarchal) culture is the mythological record. There is a point in all western myth where a great male hero wrests power from either a goddess, a group of powerful women, or a goddess' representative. The doric invasion coincides with the rape of Delphi by Apollo and the defeat of the Amazon by Hercules, for example.

It's hardly as solid as some pagans and feminists want it to be. But it's not as idiotic as Christians and men want it to be either. It's not knowable, but there is some evidence--as much as we can ever know about pre-classical cultures.

Have you ever read the Moynahan Report? A stunning performance of racism and sexism in one: a US senator claiming all black culture is decadent and evil because the slave cultures were matrifocal.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

You are right. I've swung too far the other way (a counsel of despair.) The archaeological record gives us no certainties. We interpret according to our prejudice.

I guess a little bitterness has crept in. I was sold on the work of people like Gimbutas and then I looked and saw how she had imposed her own theories and desires on the evidence.

But, yes; Myth bears witness to the one time power of the Goddess.

I hadn't even heard of the Moynahan Report. Oh wow!

[catvalente.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's a classic. Black folk are irredeemable because their roots are tainted by matriarchy. And he's still in the senate.

I'm still pagan, and I'm a feminist. I once bought into all the same books--I smiled ruefully when I saw you talk about The Sword and the Chalice. It's disillusioning to see the bias at work. But just because wild speculations were treated as fact doesn't mean they don't come from somewhere, and there have been matrifocal societies all throughout history. Some, like Jewish culture, are still matrilinear.

As with everything, the truth is somewhere between "women are evil and have never been anything but" and "women are the true rulers and men stole everything from them."

It's strange, though, that we seem to feel we need a pre-historical precedent in order to be powerful now. As if, if it never happened before, it can never happen...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'm a feminist and if you twisted my arm up my back I'd probably admit to being a pagan still. After all one of the beauties of Paganism is that you're not committed to any set of doctrinal beliefs.

Your final point is bang on target. Why are we so mistrustful of the New that we have to insist on it being of immeasurable antiquity?

If it's right it's right- and why should it matter what great-great-great-great-grandmother did?

[catvalente.livejournal.com]

Of course, I can answer my own question.

Men's argument for the oppression of women has always been that we are "naturally" inferior and servile. To disprove this, we look for foremothers to destroy that arrogant presumption by those who do not even share our nature.

In fact, if pressed, I think most men would still say women are naturally fitted to be mothers and caretakers and helpmeets, and not even see how little that differs from Aristotle's conviction that we exist to serve.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes, I can see that.

And I suppose that's why I felt so badly let down when it was pointed out to me that the Chalice and the Blade was fantasy. I had built a belief system on these foundations and they had been shown to be incapable of bearing the load.

[catvalente.livejournal.com]

Keep an eye on the author names--anything markedly new age pseudonymish is usually crap.

But you and I did the dippy pagans one better--in our disappointment we went out and got real knowledge. It's up to us to interpret that knowledge as a good, and not a consolation prize.

[morrison-maiden.livejournal.com]

Where women are concerned all men are nazis. Some of us, perhaps, are good nazis.

This sums up exactly how I feel towards men. I love men, but I'm very scared of them too. I know that there are probably lots of guys out there who are good-hearted, but I'm very afraid of most of them :\

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

There are good men out there.

Look for one who doesn't run with the pack.

[besideserato.livejournal.com]

Today, Nov. 15th, is my birthday. I share this fine holiday with Erwin Rommel. We are Desert Foxes.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Happy birthday, Anaiis.

We Brits always did have a bit of a soft spot for Rommel. He was an officer and a gentleman.

[besideserato.livejournal.com]

I have always loved him, too! Fabulous strategist and elegant soldier. I am thrilled silly that he was born on the same day as I.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The only thing I can remember about my birthday- Jan 21- is that it was the day Lenin died.

[besideserato.livejournal.com]

Well, on January 21, 1976 the first Concordes took flight (from London's Heathrow Airport and Orly Airport outside Paris). As you mentioned, in 1924 Vladimir Lenin died. In 1793, King Louis XVI was executed. And in 1867 French General Maxime Weygand was born...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes- the execution of Louis XVI. Had I been around then (and who knows, perhaps I was) I would have been a Jacobin.

General Weygand?

[besideserato.livejournal.com]

He was one of the commanders who accepted the German surrender at the end of the First World War only to advise the French to surrender to the Germans early in World War II.

I am over-simplifying... more here. Hopefully more in-depth and accurate. I am so tired and drunk, if I don't go to bed, I may pass out at the keyboard. Good night!