poliphilo

Apes make me uneasy. I can't watch wild-life films that feature them. They remind me too much of us.

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And what about that gorilla, who cried (I think) and used sign language to sign the word "Sad" when told (not shown) that his friend the kitten named Blue had died?

And the--oh, what is the name of these relatives of chimps? Something with a B--great apes who make love facing each other? And they are supposed to be very close to us genetically, closer than chimps...and I think mates sleep in nests together. Just like us. Scary.

I heard recently on NPR that chimps (I am pretty sure it was chimps) actually take small tool kits of various sizes of sticks with them when they want to punch holes in termite mounds and then extract the termites for lunch. They first use a slightly larger stick to break into the nest, then a smaller stick to probe the hole. That's a rather refined tool kit, and they bring it along with them from home!

We're just past figuring out how to use tools ourselves. And, uh-oh!--some of us stumbled upon some rather sophisticated tools that work with nuclear power! Whoops.

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Chimps also share some of our less endearing traits....like murder and genocide.

And, they have seen evidence of orangutans raping females.

So, sadly, the closer the relation, the moreso that "nasty" traits emerge. Food for thought, that, really...

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My friend Judy is always going on about the Gorilla with the kitten. I think she has the programme on tape and watches it for fun. Brrrr- I'd rather not know.

I think it's horrific that we're keeping these close relatives of ours behind bars- almost as horrific as what we're doing at Guantanamo Bay.

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Know what I've been thinking about all morning after reading your post? The American Indians, how we obliterated them and destroyed their culture and now ignore them in their trailers on dusty reservations with rusted out pickup trucks. And the Africans that we dragged over here, taking them away from everything and everyone they knew so we could have people make our beds for us.

And no one much thought--did they?--that what we were doing was monstrous!

On the time graph of humans, this happened yesterday afternoon.

I wonder what we'll come up with next?

Oh, yeah, and I left out Hitler.

I think the bonobos may be a lot wiser than we are. They look like they're having fun, and I think they just throw rocks.

We may all be doing that right along with them, if we don't watch out.

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Yes we were practising slavery almost within living memory. At the time you and I were born it was within living memory.

And we're still doing comparably horribly things to one another. For example how does one react to the news I heard on the radio just now that an independent survey team has calculated that 100,000 iraqi civilians have been killed since the start of the war? Downing St takes issue with the figures. Well, of course it would. Murderers! How does Blair sleep at nights?

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I have seen the controversial Michael Moore film, and there is one heartbreaking scene in which Iraqui civilians are crying and asking God to deliver them, because Americans are invading their house, and they are all terrified.

We don't see that on television. It disgusts me. All we have is our homes, with their locked doors.

Until a couple of years ago, unlike your country, we had never been touched by the outside world--with one great exception: when the explorers arrived, liked what they saw, and mowed over the Indians who were living here. That was the first invasion, and our karma is coming due, and we damn well deserve what we get.

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My son served a tour of duty in Basra. He came back having seen and done things he didn't want to talk about.

But his duties included barging into people's homes and terrorizing them.

fourthorns works in TV, editing film for the news broadcasts. She talks about how all the carnage is edited out of footage of the war. How she can show a burning vehicle but not the evisarated corpse lying alongside.

I sometimes think we should be made to watch these things.

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How terrible for your son, to carry such a burden.

We spend our lives teaching our children to care gently for others and to first be kind; then somehow, in the army, these young, idealistic people must be trained to unlearn all of it and still must stay sane.

It can't be an easy way back again--childhood has been stripped away, and somehow the sensitive mind must find a way to understand what must surely have felt like psychosis.

It is unfair to dump all this onto our young people without having to in some measure (even if only remotely, through television) experience what they are suffering, for suffering it is.

My own husband, who came out of Vietnam just before the action began, was still deeply hurt by things he saw there, and he would never talk about it. But one day, not that many years after he was back from overseas, we were walking in a Florida tropical park when a lizard startled him; in an instant, he was crouched on the ground, trembling.

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My son is a career soldier. It's a while since I last saw him. He's currently in the Falklands I believe.

We're aren't alienated, but neither do we seek out one another's company. He was on leave last week but he didn't contact me.

This is an issue I know I haven't faced properly. The most I do is tiptoe up to it (as here) then run away.

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Have you ever read Pearl Buck's book Dragon Seed? I've never found a book that better illustrated the consequences of war on the human psyche.

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No that's entirely new to me.

The only thing I know of Pearl Buck's is the film of The Good Earth- with all those locust swarms (achieved, I believe, with coffee grounds- and very convincing too!)

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Pearl Buck, who won the Nobel Prize for The Good Earth, was the daughter of missionaries in China. She lived through war there, and her family fled.

Her beautifully written, deceptively simple books were first written in Chinese and then translated into English. Her book, Dragon Seed is one of the most powerful books I have ever read, and I have read it many times.

I've also read The Good Earth many times. She is a wonderful story teller, and her love for the Chinese people, particularly the country people, is clear.

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I must add her to the ever mounting list of people I have to read. Didn't she win the Nobel Prize, or am I thinking of someone else?

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She won the Nobel for The Good Earth.

Her books about the simple country people of China in the early days of this century, particularly The Good Earth (which is actually a trilogy, but the first book of the series won the Prize) and Dragon Seed, are just brilliantly written--and lovingly written, with such a wise understanding of people. And her descriptions are superb, as are her plots, and her books to me are the finest kind of fiction writing, which really is telling wonderful tales.

I am trying very hard to convince you, because I would love to share her books!

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You're the second person recently who has tried to convince me to read Buck. I guess I should take this as a sign. Besides, I trust your judgement.

Guess I'll go look for her on Amazon :)

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I take it back that we deserve what we get. We didn't invade America, for heaven's sake.

But I don't think it's fair to forget that bloody beginning to our country.

Come to think about it (and I remember this from sociology class, and also a little from botany) it's the way of bigger, stronger things to take over and eradicate smaller, weaker things--whether weeds taking over gardens or men with guns taking over countries.

As Carl Sagan said, on our planet at least, it's "us against them, right down to the amoeba."

It would be a merciful thought to think that on other worlds there is some other mechanism of "positive checks" than predatory behavior. Maybe that's why the idea of heaven seems so dreamlike and wonderful. The competition, the tooth-and-claw is over, and we drift on clouds and sing.

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Bonobos. That's the word.

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karenkay.livejournal.com

Bonobos are pygmy chimpanzees, not great apes. They weigh around 70 pounds or so.

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Did you see the < a href="http://www.primates.com/bonobos/">photographs? They are fascinating. There are some of the bonobos mating that are very intimate and touching.

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Aw cute.

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I find it comforting, the knowledge that we are a part of the greater whole, not simply "dropped" here on the planet. Looking into the eyes of these marvelous creatures, one cannot help but see that we are kin.

Which of course makes me even sadder when I see the way many of us treat them. Frankly, the way we treat all animals is depraved, unjust, and just plain disgusting. Don't take me for someone who believes we should only consume plants, never wear animal products (although I have a problem with fur simply because the rest of the animal is often wasted), etc. That is not what I am espousing. What I am saying is that we, who are supposedly superior, should be able to treat the "lesser" creatures with respect, dignity, and kindness. We do not need to treat those animals we raise for food as we do, making their lives painful and terrifying.

Ack! That was a major tangent. My apologies.

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That was a major tangent. My apologies.

Not at all. In fact, my visceral reaction: I got tears in my eyes.

Beautifully said.

(And I eat meat, and don't think about it. But I should. Thans for this.)

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of further hijacking, I will say that I eat meat as well. But I make sure that the meat is, whenever possible, raised humanely. That the animals were given a good, gentle life, and a humane death.

My sister and I once got into a terrible argument. She became a vegetarian after watching some horrific videos and doing some reading - which I myself did at her age. The difference is that I recognized that there was no way in hell to convinve 6 billion people NOT to consume animals (which is exactly what she wants to have happen). Instead, I told her, focus on a goal that is possible....the better treatment of those animals we consume.

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I like your thinking. There are ways to begin.

In fact, our tiny effort: we only buy eggs from free-range chickens. And I understand (and I hate hearing this! I turn away from hearing this, but now I know) that chickens are not only stuffed into cages but are de-beaked. Just typing that gives me chills. I only know this because, at a new organic grocery store in Knoxville, they advertise that all their chickens were raised with beaks intact.

When my daughter was 16, she became a vegetarian to protest caged animals and animal treatment. One day I was getting ready to bite into a piece of chicken and she began to cry, and asked me how I could be so cruel, and I, being irritated, swatted her away with a facile and shallow response: "Consider me a microcosm of the uncaring world."

She ran from the table sobbing, as well she should have.

In order to be clever, I wounded her deeply. More, I made light of something that was gravely important to her in order to swat away my own uneasy guilty feelings.

I've never forgotten that self-serving, ugly moment with my daughter. I'm still ashamed of my behavior toward that gentle, caring person sitting across from me.

How often in our lives do we really care about something? How terrible, to take the light out of someone's eyes in order to be clever.

Your response was much more mature than mine, and at a much younger age! You are correct: one must begin where it is possible, and take it step by step.

I have more than once told my daughter how much I admired her stand. She is no longer a vegetarian, but she loves animals very much and shops now at places like that organic store. It's a start for her, too.

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Can't believe it took me this long to discover you.

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I feel the same. Friending you back.

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I've with you much of way. I've been a vegetarian for many years- not because I'm the least bit sentimental about animals, but I because I reckon we owe it to them- and to ourselves- to treat them with respect.

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I certainly have no problem, nor meant any insult to, vegetarians with my statements (hope they didn't sound that way). I always feel people should do what their conscience tells them - just that we also have to not be too surprised when other people's consciences don't always mesh 100% with our own.

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