Forgiveness

[poliphilo]

Forgiveness is always sublime, but...

A friend of mine is being pestered by a man from her past of whom she has less than delightful memories. Maybe he's just amazingly thick-skinned and unaware of how she feels about him- or maybe he's been put up to it by his AA group. Apparently that's something the AA do- they urge their members to go out and seek reconciliation with those they've wronged.
 
It's not that she doesn't forgive him, it's just that she'd rather he faded back into the woodwork. Does forgiveness mean you have to hang out with your former enemies?

It's a very egotistical thing, wanting to be forgiven. You've hurt this person and now you're creeping round them going, "Please make me feel better".  It turns the victim into the aggressor.  Wouldn't it be kinder- more honest-  to keep the hell out of their way?

Or are you doing them a favour by giving them the opportunity to forgive, which- as I said at the beginning- is always a sublime act?

Someone should write a novel about this.

Comments

[dadi.livejournal.com]

Some religious and "spiritual" groups put people up to this stuff too. I have an ex too who is part of some kind of sect which promises him he will do astral travelling, thought control (of other people), have all the money and the sex he will ever want.. if he does what they say, among which the "reconciling" is on the program. He periodically pesters me that we have to "forgive each other" for what we have done to each other, but to me this is simply another way of him stalking me out of my head what had ended our relationship. So now he stalks me to ask me to forgive him for stalking me. Gah.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That is simply disgusting.

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

Somebody???

Give it a go!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

But I know my limitations. That kind of psychological/theological fiction is way beyond my grasp. Dostoevsky might have attempted it, or Iris Murdoch.

Fink-Nottle wanted in role

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

It seems an Iris Murdoch subject
doesn't it?
but I do not remember liking her
fiction much, with its theological
dramatizations of sartre if one can
put it so...
how about p.g.wodehouse(nominating
someone departed the scened but to
suggest a tone)
I imagine Gussie Fink-Nottle pursuing
some lady(or put up to it by Bertie
with the reluctant connivance of Jeeves)
to ask her pardon...

Re: Fink-Nottle wanted in role

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

What a delightful suggestion.

I am now trying to imagine Wodehouse grappling with the plot of the Idiot.

There's a Tolstoy novel- but not as I remember a very good one- Resurrection- that tackles the theme.

I'm very fond of Murdoch myself- but that's for tomorrow's post :)

crime and punishment retold

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

Having taken to heart,if hardly to head,
some quote from spinoza ,Bertie puts ax
through aunt dahlia's cow creamer.

Re: crime and punishment retold

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

And Jeeves comes up with an elaborate plan whereby Aunt Dahlia is pacified and the cow creamer either replaced or restored.

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

yes it was not THE cow creamer
which he broke...

[sorenr.livejournal.com]

It's the old story about forgiving and forgetting; one does not necessarily lead to the other, and sometimes forgiveness can be granted without the victim ever being able to forget or have normal relations with the aggressor again. Anybody seeking forgiveness should - in my opinion - always be ready to face either a refusal of forgiveness or a forgiveness that doesn't mean a clean slate. (Can there ever truly be a clean slate when one person has been hurt? Will traces not always linger on, sore in the background? And sometimes too sore to be reminded of on a regular basis?)

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It's complicated. Is it really forgiveness if you still want the person out of your life? Can you forgive someone while still intensely disliking them?

or maybe he's been put up to it by his AA group

[baritonejeff.livejournal.com]

Regarding this, steps 8 and 9:

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

In the Al-Anon meetings I attended, there was much discussion of these steps, with particular emphasis on being sensitive as to whether or not the subject(s) of ones "amends" attempts is/are receptive to this, and respecting that.

If this guy is taking this as a mandate for finding everyone he has wronged and pestering them into forgiving him, then he is perverting (or at the very least misunderstanding) the concept.

These two steps might be better worded: Figure out who you wronged, and try to fix it if you can; but only if they want you to.

Re: or maybe he's been put up to it by his AA group

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the clarification.

Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone you've wronged is never to darken their door again.

Re: or maybe he's been put up to it by his AA group

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

I have to (reluctantly) agree with that. Even if it's a close family member who has a misconception of the wrongs that were - or were not - done.

Re: or maybe he's been put up to it by his AA group

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think one has to accept that there are things that are not going to be put right in this life.

Re: or maybe he's been put up to it by his AA group

[baritonejeff.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Sometimes. Probably most of the time.

While there are certainly some negatives, one of the beauties of a well utilized twelve step program is to help one clarify and clean up ones personal world, and to find a place for that within the world in general that is healthy both for oneself and for others. (looooooooooong sentence! lol!)

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

She should do a deal - "I'll forgive you but ONLY if you promise me to bugger off."

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yeah!

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

That works! At least the amends-maker will know exactly where he or she stands. Sometimes forgiveness implies that a friendship or other relationship will be rekindled -- most often it won't.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

Forgiveness means choosing not to seek retribution for what was done. Fellowship/trust/reconciliation means associating with someone. The two are not the same, and one is not obligated to hang out with a person they do not wish to associate with. While it hurts when someone doesn't want to hang out, the person seeking reconciliation needs to accept the other person's choice and learn how to move on.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's a useful distinction.

Forgiveness, on this model, is quite a cold, cerebral thing- an act of the will- and doesn't really involve the emotions. I like that.

thoughts on it

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

the film flat liners was about this as I
remember--medical students experimenting in near death
experiences come up against ghosts of their past in
unforgiven acts...
but in fact I suppose each case is unique and it is
doubtful that anyone remembering some schoolyard bully
wants to meet the fellow again etc
the balance of things often must rest in God or in
the Tao of things etc and the idea that we can pay all
debts is an illusion...
we would be hard pressed by the gravity of our debts
and of our heavy selves if there were not something
like Grace...

Re: thoughts on it

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

I believe in Grace, too. If I did not, I "would be hard pressed by the gravity...."

Re: thoughts on it

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've seen that movie, but I don't remember very much about it- which is odd really, considering what a great premise it has.

I think you're right. There's only so much we can sort out here on earth.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

Amends-making is a "sticky wicket". As a recovered alcoholic I too have had my turn at amends-making, and been rebuffed for the attempt. The program tells us to attempt (try) "to make amends where ever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others". Easier said than done. Some are offended if you do not try, while others are offended if you do try.
Then, of course, there are those who are hell bent to make amends whether the other party wants it or not. Sounds like your friend's "friend" is one of those. Here's hoping he is not one of those obsessed ex-boyfriends who often wreak havoc on a person's life, while attempting to rekindle an old (and dead) relationship.
Ideally, it is best to offer amends and let the other party take it or leave it without either crowing about a good result or resenting a bad one. It doesnt always work out that way.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I don't think this guy is an obsessive. The way things are developing it seems like he's unaware of the damage he once caused.

[zoe-1418.livejournal.com]

I've been in a somewhat similar situation -- someone seeking to make amends to me -- and I've struggled with it. In my case it was a family member from whom I didn't, ultimately, *want* to stay estranged -- perhaps that made it even more difficult, because I couldn't just write him off and never speak to him again (there were other important family reasons for this too). I did a lot of musing about what the hell forgiveness means to me, anyway... and eventually (maybe a year and a half after his initial gesture?) I did believe that I'd reached "forgiveness," and also the beginning of reconciliation -- and we are friendly and cooperative now (we both need to be involved in our parents' care, for instance) -- but that doesn't mean I "forget" what he did or say "oh, that's OK." It's a very deep and dark (not meaning dark in a BAD sense, more in the sense of "not cheery and light") experience...

As for novels... I can't think of an exact instance, but it seems to my foggy memory that Susan Howatch may have some of this -- the complexity of forgiveness in real life -- in her Starbridge novels.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Families present a special case. Where an ex-lover can sail off over the horizon and never be seen again, we'll never be entirely free of the people we're related to.

I like that you use "dark" to mean something other than "bad". The dark is where seeds germinate.

[zoe-1418.livejournal.com]

I think that I also believe that forgiveness is an inside job, both for the one seeking forgiveness and the one who is asked to forgive. As one in the latter category, I have experienced forgiving someone's wrong against me as more like "letting go" of it to the extent that it is no longer eating away at me and harming me.

Huge topic, of course, and hard to be articulate about. Yeah, that's so true about seeds and the dark. Human beings (and other animals) also develop in the dark of the womb.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's right. Holding onto a grudge hurts the grudger a lot worse than it hurts the grudgee.

"Dark" and "darkness" are my favourite words

[queen-in-autumn.livejournal.com]

There is one particular person from my past -- an emotionally abusive ex-lover, who I have never been able to forgive, even though I feel that I understand and have compassion for the elements in his background which clearly led to his behavior. (I spent a lot of time around his horrible family.)

I don't want him in my life again. In fact, I've coached Wolfling that there may be a time when I deny who I am if a particular person ever accosts us in public.

That said. . . If he ever came to me and said, "QiA, I want you to know that I now understand how badly I hurt you, and I want to offer my apologies and ask for forgiveness" I would appreciate it. I would like to forgive him, but I don't feel enlightened enough to do so without him acknowledging that he hurt me very badly.

I still would not want him in my life, but having him acknowledge his harm and express contrition would be very welcome.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that you're on the way to forgiveness when you say you feel compassion for this man.

I think it's possible to forgive someone coldly- simply as an act of will. Forgiveness doesn't commit you to liking the person or volunteering to spend time with them.

[queen-in-autumn.livejournal.com]

I still carry a hard little stone of hurt and anger toward him deep inside. To me, "forgiveness" would mean being able to release that, and to let go of the lingering negative emotions I carry toward him.

Part of me would like to be able to do so, simply for my own good. Part of me continues to be angry on some level that -- if his past pattern holds true -- he's out there somewhere telling other pepole what a bitch I was for betraying him and leaving him after I'd promised to marry him.

I *do* wish him healing from his hurts -- and along with that, as the 12 Steps counsel, waking up to his own responsibility for hurting me and others and wanting to make amends.