A Sudden Turnaround

[poliphilo]

Oh...

Right....

I spoke to the solicitor. He's withdrawing from the case. He thinks Azam is scamming us.

It's like this. Azam wants to convert to Christianity, yes? But he knows nothing about Christianity. He's interviewed by immigration officials and he can't tell them what an apostle is or who Jesus' mother was. Even more telling, he doesn't seem to want to find out. He has an Urdu bible in his hands, but he hasn't read a word of it.

Apparently a lot of people try to pull this trick.

Anyway, he'll be going back to Pakistan. There's nothing anyone can do for him at this late stage. The case is closed.

I feel a little foolish.

Sorry.

And of course I'll always be left with a scintilla of doubt. Maybe he was for real and a terrible injustice has been done. I'll never know.

Comments

[shullie.livejournal.com]

whatever his circumstances, you should feel 'proud,' you stood by your principles and convictions.. and did you best for a fellow human being, (something many others never try to to) and you tried to help...we will never know what his reality was/is...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

It's been a weird experience...

[amritarosa.livejournal.com]

I fully agree with shullie. You did the right thing which in itself is admirable. You have nothing to feel embarassed about.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[michaleen.livejournal.com]

Regardless of whether you feel a bit foolish or apologetic, you did the right thing.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks

[arielstarshadow.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing: I never got the impression that he was really serious about being a Christian. I think he wanted out of an oppressive, frightening society, and he converting as a way out - and I don't see anything wrong with that. How many other people throughout history converted to a new religion - not because they truly believed - but because it meant a chance at a better life? A heck of a lot.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

*nods to this*

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes.

I think that's a pretty good diagnosis.

[heleninwales.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I was sceptical about the conversion too. Unfortunately, what Azam probably didn't realise was that conversion wasn't really going to help him in today's secular Britain.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I can see how, coming from a culture dominated by religion, he might make that mistake.

[ideealisme.livejournal.com]

I agree with arielstarshadow - given a lot of people on the globe live a shit life and we in the west live a nice life without oppression or grinding starvation, it's natural that anyone with a bit of drive should want to go and live a better life. I'm sure he was genuinely a nice guy and I don't think you did the wrong thing in helping him. Better to err on the side of leniency in these cases and I don't think you were that foolish at all.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes.

In other circumstances this kind of initiative is rewarded. The USA was built by people like him.

[frumiousb.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I've been following this silently. But here I get confused. Why did his uncle withdraw sponsorship if it wasn't about him wanting to convert to Christianity? Or was that all part of the story?

You may not know the answer to that, I realize. But it confused me.

And in any case, I don't think that you should be sorry for caring.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Well, there are too possibilities. One is that the whole thing was a family plot. The other is that Azam has gone out on a limb and alienated his family.

Thanks.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think you are foolish, not at all.

If he was genuine I feel that, as an adult, he has to take responsibility for himself. You said the consequences of his actions had been explained to him and that he 'didn't care'. That seems a little foolish on his part.

Take the 22 year old alcoholic who recently died; I believe he should have had a second chance had the resources been available.

However, resources for both asylum in this country and liver transplants are finite and, in both cases I believe there to be far more worthwhile causes that deserve to be considered.

And I very much believe that people should take a great deal more responsibility for themselves than they seem to currently and not expect other people to get them out of the problems they get themselves into.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

If it was a scam he hadn't thought it through- and he hadn't put the work in. As the solicitor said, what would it have cost him to read a chapter or two of the Bible? With a little homework he could have turned himself into a reasonably convincing, would-be convert, but- for what ever reason- he couldn't be bothered.

[heleninwales.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a typical young man to me! I suspect he really hadn't thought things through at all, or even had a very clear idea of what he was trying to do.

I'm sorry that he pulled the wool over your eyes. It's often difficult when you're close to the situation to see things clearly. From what you say above it's a trick that the immigration officials have seen before, so they get a clearer perspective.

Whilst it would no doubt be nice for Azam to settle here, we are a small and crowded island and I would rather keep spaces for those genuinely in danger from war or persecution.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

"Typical young man" says it all I think- reckless, charming and believes himself to be immortal.

There were things that might have given me pause for thought, but I was willing to be duped.

[tf-1.livejournal.com]

Well I'm glad that's sorted.
I had suspicions that this could have been something concocted by his uncle to get him settled in the UK. As you say - a lot people are pulling tricks like this.
I also found it odd that he'd want to convert to Christianity, after all it's so similar. I think of Islam as "Christianity Plus". The plus being all the methods of control above and beyond what Christian churches use.
If he was telling the truth his actions were of a reckless fool. If he was pulling a fast one they are more understandable.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It's kind of you not to say "I told you so" :)

I'm more inclined to think of Islam as "Christianity minus". It seems to me it's a much simpler religion.

[tf-1.livejournal.com]

Could be, could be. I, of admittedly limited religious study, understand Islam as Christianity from back when it started (hence more simple), but with a political leader slash general who conveniently has a selection of "revelations", including one saying basically "and no returns" (i.e. "and I'm the last prophet"). These revelations basically allow him to rule in the way he desires with the Muslim populace scared into following said revelations on pain of eternal damnation (hence the "plus").

I'd never say I told you so :). You had close contact with this seemingly friendly and honest chap. Being good natured and to your credit you sought to do your best for him. I will however say that sometimes it pays to be an out-and-out cynic, hehe!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Christianity has a start of several hundred years- and has been through some seismic upheavals- most notably the Reformation.

Islam, I have to say, is the one world religion I find wholly unattractive.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed. I love to meet people of all different races, religions, cultures etc. and I used to defend Islam under the concept that everyone should be able to practice what they want. Then I actually had in-depth discussions with a muslim, and everything was so illogical. Any logical argument I presented was answered either with a robotic denial or another illogical idea. I think liberty / civilised society is to practice what you want so long as it doesn't harm others, and I think this is where Islam in particular falls short.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I remember having a conversation with an educated Muslim- a teacher, actually- who invited questions about his faith. I asked whether he thought Islam would experience anything like the European Enlightenment any time soon and this visibly rattled him. "Oh, no" he said. "That's never going to happen."

Christianity has been grappling with the issues of modernity for the past 400 years. Islam, by and large, seems to have ignored them.

[daisytells.livejournal.com]

I am sorry that things turned out this way for you. However, you did the right thing in trying to help another human being.
Religious Muslims know about Jesus and regard him as a prophet who preceded Muhammed. They also know the name of the mother of Jesus -- Maryam or Miriam in their languages.
I have a couple of Muslim friends who would consider it a rather foolish move to leave off their faith -- much as if I too decided to leave off mine and become Muslim. Yet, a person should be free to make that decision for him or her self without government interference.

[tf-1.livejournal.com]

Not to say that the govt. was interfering in this case, right?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It's possible Azam knows as little about Islam as he does about Christianity.

There's a huge gulf between Christianity and Islam- not only religious, but also cultural. Switching from one to the other is not something to be undertaken lightly.

[carl9whalley.livejournal.com]

Your not a fool you just care nothing wrong in that your a good natured person.Sometimes were taken in and then spat back confused.

I have been fooled many times and that's by my own. Arghh teenagers and Jonathan eh !!!!!!!!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Yes, I'd rather be gullible than cynical.

[clindau.livejournal.com]

Don't feel foolish. You tried to help a fellow human being. Sometimes you get scammed. Sometimes you really do help. Thing is, you tried. It's more than I would have done.
I'm a little ashamed to admit that, but then, I'm cynical that way.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

There was an element of showing off in it. "Look at me; see how many contacts I've got; look how I can swing it for you."

[clindau.livejournal.com]

I sometimes wonder where the Good Feelings one gets from helping someone come from--pleasure at being able to help, or pleasure from being seen by others as a Good Person. Hiding one's light under a bushel basket, or shining it on a hill for all to see. I'm rather inclined to hide my light under the basket.

[wokenbyart.livejournal.com]

Even though you asked me to help on this one, by sharing it with people, I put it off for one simple reason: I like to have more facts before I will even think of acting on something. (And sorry, but often I won't act on something anyway. Lack of facts is one reason, cowardice is often the other.)

However... I wonder if what Azam said is any less trustworthy than what the immigration officials said. It would be a good way to rationalise turning down a lot of people, wouldn't it.

These days I am less and less likely to trust what people in authority say, as there is so much absolute crap coming at us from them.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

These days I am less and less likely to trust what people in authority say, as there is so much absolute crap coming at us from them.

Me, too. I have been too often on the receiving end of authoritative crap (and suffered the consequences of authorities getting away with spouting crap) to not be skeptical. I wonder what the real truth is.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I jumped without looking on this one. If I had it all to do again I would take things much more slowly.

I've never greatly trusted the authorities- on anything.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

Did I reply to this post? I had intended to...

Anyway, I don't think you were foolish. There are plenty of times when bureaucracies screw up in asylum cases, so it was quite humane of you to take it seriously. The facts seems to point to a scam, though, so I am glad the scammer was found out.

In short, the blame belongs to the scammer, not to you.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

On reflection I think I should have taken things more slowly- but I'm afraid it's my nature to be impulsive. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't.

asylum

[alice-g.livejournal.com]

you know I used to work in asylum and immigration typing up the appeal judgements. When I started I was horrified by the stories, but soon can begin to pick the real ones from the fake ones. Also you notice the 'copycat' stories. Probably it worked for a few people, but then the stories get watered down, or people, like your guy, don't do their research. I guess I got a little cynical and hardened to it.

That said I have always felt a great sympathy for most of these people. Whether they are running from torture, rape and murder, or they simple think that an 'asylum' case will land them a better life in a country where the streets are paved with gold. Either way their previous lives sucked enough to make them desire a whole new one in a different culture. Our world is not a fair place to be, and we got a good deal of it. It's utterly human to want to better oneself and I don't blame them one little bit.

Don't feel silly Dad, all you did was try to help someone. I don't think the guy's a conman, just a desperate person wanting a decent life. No shame in that. x

Re: asylum

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Al.

Yes, like you, I can't blame people for wanting to move from places like Pakistan to places like England. There was a story this morning about a guy who'd got himself into this country from Calais by hiding himself underneath a vehicle belonging to British immigration officials. If the circumstances had been ever so slightly different- if it wasn't our laws that were being broken and our officials being embarrassed- we'd call him a hero.