More From Tideswell

[poliphilo]

We can't be sure who these ladies are but apparently they're older than the church that houses them. Aren't they elegant? One is dated c.1300 and the other c.1375. They've been placed rather awkwardly in the sanctuary of the Lady Chapel in a position where only the priest at the altar can see them properly. I had to climb over the altar rail to take these pictures. An act of trespass. But I am still a priest- yes I am: I may be listed in the archbishop's little black book, but they never defrocked me.

Comments

[manfalling.livejournal.com]

You're still a priest? So could you go back and work as a priest again then? Or is still being a priest just a technicality- since you're in the bad books, and they'd never actually take you back?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I haven't tested the water, but it's my belief that if I went to the Church authorities and said, "look, I know I've been bad, but I'm truly sorry and I've cleaned up my act- gissa job", they'd almost certainly be willing to re-employ me.

[manfalling.livejournal.com]

Really- even after all the pagany stuff?

It's likely they'll have heard what you've been up to since you quit- you were kind of famous in that field for a while. I wonder if you coming back then would be considered a victory for them. I suppose they could try and pitch it that way.

I've always wondered- why not just fake it? Don't most priests fake it? They're educated- they don't really BELIEVE believe do they?

And in the process, get some good things done for people. And a nice secure way of life. But I suppose you got to do those things on your own terms anyway, so...

I have occasionally thought about you joining the priesthood and me joining my first English school as the same kind of thing. Initiation into a whole new world. First real job, and a potential career, but only if you accept certain premises. We both quit. You disillusioned with the belief, me disillusioned with English teaching. Then you went on to explore various types of faith, just as I've gone on to explore different types of teaching.

You had your down and out time- Brompton Street- and I languished in my own doldrums after the bike trip failure for about 2 years. I suppose for me it was a kind of crisis of faith. I'd lost the belief in my whole life plan. I guess it was the same for you. Though you had more riding on it, and more to lose. That must have really sucked.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Those are interesting parallels. I don't know about you, but I'm glad I had the Brompton St experience. It was pretty grim, but it was also pretty exciting. What doesn't kill me makes me strong.

Do you reckon you've put the "doldrums" behind you- or is there still work to be done?

The Church went through an interesting phase in the 60s, 70s and 80s, with people like The Bishop of Durham and- even more radical- the Rev'd Don Cupitt- exploring how far it was possible to go in denying traditional Christian doctrine while still remaining Christian. I got caught up in all that. But I could never see why, after you'd passed a certain stage, you should want to go on playing the game. Cupitt ended up embracing a kind of Christian Atheism. Fine. But too subtle for me. Why not just bail out and become an honest to goodness atheist?

These days the radicals have gone quiet- maybe they all left the church- and the conservative evangelicals are running things. These are people who are anti-modern, intellectually incurious, and seem to have nothing better to do with their time than obsess about homosexuality and abortion.

[manfalling.livejournal.com]

Doldrums- good question. I do worry from time to time that it might be possible to slip right back into them. I'd make one mistake, the world would change shape, and I'd be left screwed.

Having said that though- at no stage did leaving the first company really feel right. Neither did leaving Yuka behind. I wasn't all that psyched about the bike trip either. I just felt I HAD to do those things. Prove something, I don't know. It was the plan and I had to stick to it.

Perhaps now I have more modest goals. Am trying to build a base in reality, not stretched out on some rickety bridge of hope and dreams and fortuitousness. But I guess you never know.

I suppose, with that in mind, there was no way to avoid the ultimate doldrums I had. They were built into the dreams that weren't a good match for what I really wanted to do.

Atheist Christians huh? Sounds kind of cool. You get the respect, the community, the house and the pay, but can pretty much say you don't believe.

[saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com]

Good for you - Well Done.
I'm going to ask a personal question and if its too rude I won't be angry if you don't want to answer.
Did you stop believing in God - or just the church?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's a difficult one- because my beliefs have wobbled around a whole lot over the past twenty years.

When I left the Church I was heartily sick of the whole thing, but not exactly an atheist. I had rejected the God of the Bible but was still actively searching for a religion or philosophy I could accept. I later became a pagan. There have been phases when I was happy to reject all types of theism but they've never lasted long. Right now I think I'd describe myself as an unattached Deist. I believe we live in a spiritual universe but feel no need to express that belief through religious ritual or membership of a religious community.

[saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that. I think my heart-beliefs are close to that, as well - despite being, nominally an active Eastern (Estonian) Orthodox.
My daughter is a pagan but I sometimes wonder if all that dressing up actually serves to bring her closer to something spiritual. But how do I know - maybe it does.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

All that dressing up is about establishing an identity. Has it got anything to do with spirituality? Perhaps. But it's noticeable that people who've been in the movement a while tend to care much less about draping themselves with pentacles.

[algabal.livejournal.com]

Did you ever consider returning to the priesthood?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Only in moments of weakness.

Because, after all, it's a job for life- very cosy, very secure.

But- while remaining a Deist of sorts- I just couldn't bear to sign away my intellectual freedom.

[shullie.livejournal.com]

I find I miss the surity that I had when i was a Xn in many ways... as well as the sense of community.. even though I belong to a coven now... is that makes sense.. yet I can't go back there - as I don't belive what they espouse... which was the problem in the first place... perhaps I miss the history... not really sure. For me it was like leaving a cult... I suppose -

Plus I like my interlectual freedom to much too...I was always a heritic

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've made my peace with Christianity. It's the culture I grew up in and there are things I love about it and things I deplore. I'm happy not to belong, but- in spite of this- feel very much at home in churches.

[shullie.livejournal.com]

I do love churches and feel a great affinity in there - well in most.

Like you said in a previous post, I am sure I was a monk & a Nun in a past life...

I didn't grow up in it as such - though did attend a high C0E till I was 12 and was then thrown out for messing around on pews!(I know daft really ), but my fatehr is a catholic and my mother was a witch so had a rather strange upbringing... I went to sunday school becasue all the kids did... if that makes sense.

I did use to freak people there as I use to 'see' people... and tell them...lol, including old vicars !

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Modern churches- by which I mean anything after 1600 approx- leave me cold. I can admire the architecture but I don't feel the connection. Anything medieval speaks to my heart.

I don't have memories of past lives (apart from one or two interesting dreams). I wish I did.

It's one of the things that really, really annoys me that I don't seem to have the slightest psychic ability. If I could ask for a single gift it would be the ability to "see" things.

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

Yes, indeed, quite elegant. I love the positioning of their arms and hands. Are those very large ears on the one on the left? And the one on the right does have a dog at her feet, doesn´t she?

I would also have trespassed with far less right than you.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes those are her ears. I can't quite make sense of what's going on round her head. I think she's wearing some sort of a hood and resting on a pillow, but I'm not sure.

The other has a dog (symbol of fidelity?) or at least I think it's a dog, but it's very badly worn.

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

Yes, that´s rather much to be all hair around her head. It does look like a hood.

The other is dressed like a nun. She has a wimple around her head but that´s not 100% indicative of the sisterhood in medieval times. But she also looks like she´s wearing a veil and a scapular of sorts. It´s hard to reconstruct history from all that, though.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'm no expert on medieval costume, but I think that dress is just too fancy to be a nun's habit. Also she's showing her hair at the temples.

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

Also she's showing her hair at the temples.

Yes, I saw that. I´m no expert either. I just enjoy speculating about things like this.

There is a medieval costume museum in Burgos here in Spain. It´s in a monastery where many of the very early kings, queens and nobility are buried. Napoleon´s troops sacked the place and removed all the jewelry from the tombs. The clothing had been remarkably preserved because of the intense cold and dryness that is Burgos' climate. So quite recently, as recent goes, the tombs were re-opened, the bones sorted out and the clothing was removed and is now displayed in controlled conditions in a room in the monastery. It´s been an invaluable resource for anyone who studies medieval dress.

It´s quite amazing because of teh state of preservation.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That sounds amazing. I'll have to Google it.

There's a scene in Bunuel's The Phantom of Liberty where a Napoleonic officer opens the tomb of a Spanish princess and falls in love with her perfectly preserved corpse. I should have realised (knowing Bunuel) it had a basis in historical fact. It comes just after the scene where the Spanish patriots go to their deaths- as some of them really did- shouting "long live chains".