Matters Arising

[poliphilo]

No, I couldn't go back to being a witch. It's not that I don't believe any longer. It's just that I've heard the latch click shut behind me.

If I went back I'd just be repeating myself. And I hate repeating myself. One of my problems with the Church was we had to speak the same texts over and over again. At least with Wicca I could write a new ritual every time or- even better- improvise.

I threw Christianity away. I've since had to go and retrieve it from the bushes, brush it down, leaf through the pages, draw a moral or two.

I never rejected Wicca as violently. It's more like I pushed it aside- out of my direct line of vision. But the process of reclamation is the same. 

You can't just discard things in your past. Well, I suppose you can, but you'll always feel the absence- like a phantom limb or something.

I have problems with the word belief. Why is it considered virtuous to believe- to have faith? Our society is gentle with people of faith- even when the things they believe are manifestly wrong or wicked. When you believe in something you can't prove and others- maybe- can disprove, where's the virtue in that? It just means you're a fool, an unreflective fool, a sap.

Our society pretends to value independent thought. it doesn't really. People who think things through are a nuisance. They wobble the applecart our rulers sit astride. 

That's why faith is valued. it serves the ends of the rulers of the world. The faithful are easier to govern.

You can't keep politics out of it.

So, "belief". I don't believe in anything. Or rather, I don't use that word if I can possibly help it. What I do is live my truth. This truth is certainly questionable. At lot of what I regard as truth is unacceptable to the current orthodoxy. 

But I don't think my truth contains anything that has been definitively disproved. If it does then more fool me.

And my truth is? Related to Plato's image of the prisoners in the cave. We live an illusion. "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players....." OK, I've got Plato and Shakespeare on my side, but I don't feel the need to argue a case. It's not a belief but a feeling. I feel it in here. Arguments aren't going to touch it. 

And following this feeling- this truth-  has taken me through Christianity and Wicca and other changes of scenery to wherever I am now. 

Whatever I am now. 

I had to fill in a questionnaire the other day and when it came to religion I scratched my head for a while, rejected "agnostic" and put "pagan". Doesn't mean I still dance round bonfires. (Not that I object to bonfires- far from it).  Means I entertain superstitions and household gods and a profound scepticism about official dogma after the high Roman fashion. Means my mind is wide open to whatever promptings it may receive from whatever worlds are out there.

Comments

[aellia.livejournal.com]

Interesting,Tony
I don't quite know where I am at the moment. There are things about the Sun gods that spark my memory

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's only in retrospect that we know exactly where we've been. We never know where we are, only where we were.

Our temple was/is dedicated to Hermes, Aphrodite and The Unconquered Sun.

[sunfell.livejournal.com]

I have discovered that I have outgrown all religion, and like you, can never return to it. It would be like putting on my kid clothes again- a fruitless effort.

Spiritually, I am still Pagan, but practice and 'belief' wise, I am agnostic and unafraid to admit it.

[solar-diablo.livejournal.com]

You can't just discard things in your past. Well, I suppose you can, but you'll always feel the absence- like a phantom limb or something.

Good way of putting it. It aptly describes the Christianity of my childhood. There are things I want to hold on to, things I want to continue to believe, and I find I cannot. It's as though I'm trying to hold on to a teddy bear I loved intensely as a boy, and feeling awkward as hell about it all the while.

Now I'm thinking of that one piece of Scripture - "Now that I am a man, I put away childish things" - in a whole new light.

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

Since I stopped being a Roman Catholic nothing in the way of a structured religion speaks to me. I suppose I have garnered a few ideas from Christianity that are still with me as it really *is* hard to discard one´s past but nothing that would constitute a faith or an organized set of beliefs.

That's why faith is valued. it serves the ends of the rulers of the world. The faithful are easier to govern.

You can't keep politics out of it.

One only has to look at the US to see that very clearly.
:/

[sculptruth.livejournal.com]

Oof, what a hard question that would be for me to answer. I wouldn't know how to summarise. I've noticed lately I have labeled myself "mystic"-- wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism) has an interesting description of what that might mean, which still leave me wondering where I stand. It's not like my brand of mysticism has a label that relates it to a specific religion, but the description of a mystic is what most closely fits for now.

Spirituality is such a personal journey; it's hard to describe to others.

Religion itself is absolutely a political structure.

[sculptruth.livejournal.com]

I should add that what keenly interests me is the connecting threads between philosophy, neuro-science, psychology, and mysticism; and generally the combination of science and mysticism. One does not cancel out the other, to me. Cosmology is an excellent example. (dark matter, quantum mechanics, etc)

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I like that image of outgrown clothes. I have a certain nostalgia for religion, just as I have a certain nostalgia for childhood. I like visiting churches and other sacred sites for the aura of deep time they have about them, but I've lost all desire to participate in religious ritual.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

There are things about Christianity I still hold to and love- the Sermon on the Mount, for instance and medieval churches.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

We share a taste for medieval Christian art, do we not?

I find Christianity- the Christ story I mean- still rings true if approached as mythology.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I was deeply influenced at one stage by Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy- an anthology of mystical writings from all the major world religions.

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

We share a taste for medieval Christian art, do we not?

Very much so...and for other medieval artistic expression perhaps.
:)
I do agree about mythology as related to the Christ story, also, but am still finding my way in that area. I need to read and study more. Any suggestions?

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

Thank you for sharing that story. And from the comments you got, maybe we have to start a "Recovering Believers" community!

We are on the same page. I'm posting a lot in godandmagic and trying to get the debate going.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, me too.

"Reality is not only stranger than we suppose but stranger than we can suppose."

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

I'm exactly where you are on that. I'm posting into godandmagic on this topic. Hope to see you there.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've not been to that community yet. I'll go have a look, maybe join in.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Suggestions? That's difficult. I've been browsing in this field for years, picking up ideas here and there. One of my starting points was Jung. He's very good on religion as a human artefact and how it reflects and serves human psychology. His autobiography, Memories, Dreams and Reflections, is a fun read and starts all sorts of fascinating hares.

I love medieval music too. Walther von Vogelwelde, the troubadors, the (original) Carmina Burana.....

[sculptruth.livejournal.com]

Ha! True words, if ever there were. I love life.

[sculptruth.livejournal.com]

I will have to find that and read it. I think lately I come about it from the philosophers' points of view-- I should once in a while, take a break from Kant, Lacan, Jung, and the like. Theology has a lot of similar approaches, sometimes--I used to read more about religions.

[sculptruth.livejournal.com]

I'm always curious to see what others have to say about it. I'll look for you there.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Huxley regarded the book as his "war work". He was resident in California during the Second World War and wanted to do something to further international harmony.

[glassgirl7.livejournal.com]

I had a client once who put on the "religion" line in a health history "Peace, Love, and Beauty". I liked that quite a bit; I knew what she was saying, and I thought it was a great solution to a semi-offensive question.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's good.

It reminds me of Keats' line,

Beauty is truth, truth beauty,- that is all
Ye know on earth and all ye need to know.

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

Medieval music...there is some wonderful stuff in Spanish.

I am very familiar with Jung having done a parallel minor degree in psychology along with English and Spanish. But I haven´t read his autobiography so I´m off to amazon to hunt it down.
Thanks!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've got a CD of music loosely linked to the pilgrimage to St James Compostella- brilliant stuff.

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

Thank you again, Tony. I'm saving this one so I can think about it.

This morning, out walking, I remembered the first house my husband and I lived in, the one with the sulphur in the closets, and wondered if I could ever (say it came up for rent) live in it again, or if I would be haunted by myself? :)

I thought then: for someone who's given up all her beliefs, how stupid that she still believes in ghosts.

What I've given up, actually, is their beliefs, whatever they are--well, the Nicene Creed and all that.

[kaysho.livejournal.com]

One of the problems I would face if I wanted to re-adopt an organised religion is that they're package deals. I may admire the basic tenets of your faith, but I want to participate and not just admire from afar, I also have to accept unthinkingly a lot of other things that my thinking mind considers undemonstrated rubbish (such as "our holy book is the law and all the other books that call themselves holy books are not" ... how is this so other than "Because we say so"? If I pull out a piece of paper and write on it, "This is the Word of God", how do you know it isn't except that you're just cocksure of yourself?).

Ironically, this is how religion classes in Catholic school made me an ex-Catholic.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

One does hear of houses being haunted by the ghosts of the living, but can people haunt themselves? I don't think I've ever heard of a case.

It might make for a pretty good story though...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

One of the attractions of Wicca is that it doesn't have a sacred book.

I used to tell people it was a "do-it-yourself" religion.

[pondhopper.livejournal.com]

I´ve been searching for the link to this and finally found it:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cantigas-Santa-Maria-Alfonso-Sabio/dp/B00068C8AQ/ref=sr_1_2/203-9914514-9076708?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1191617876&sr=1-2

This version of the Cantigas is incredibly done.

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<ione [...] living....</i>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<iOne does hear of houses being haunted by the ghosts of the living....</i>

This reminds me of an anecdote Kate told me-

She once worked with a young woman who had recently moved into a house with her husband, and she kept seeing a man, looking puzzled and confused, standing in the hallway and then moving toward the bathroom and disappearing. He was wearing pajamas.

She said she asked neighbors about the former owners of the house, and there had only been one couple, and the man was now in a nursing home with Alzheimers.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I remember a much cheerier story about a house that was haunted by a bunch of little children. Eventually the owner met an old man who had lived there as a child and he told her how he'd been having vivid dreams about running round the old home with his sisters.....