Trottiscliffe And Thereabouts
Jan. 12th, 2019 09:09 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
poliphiloWe had lunch (treated by my sister and bro-in-law)-in Luddesdown- pronounced Ludsdon- which is near Trottiscliffe- pronounced Trosley. As we drove through Trottiscliffe on our way home the sun dipped below the overcast- and in the five minutes before it sank behind the cloudbank on the horizon I took some photographs.
This is the tower of Ss Peter and Paul, Trottiscliffe. Peter and Paul is a very common dedication in Kent. I don't know why. Perhaps (and this is just a guess) the prominence of these two very Roman saints has something to do with St Augustine- who evangelised Kent in the 6th century- wanting to impress his converts with the primacy of the Roman See- which was sponsoring him.
Macey who lives in the area says Trottiscliffe is properly pronounced the way it's spelled and it's only the locals who call it Trosley, but I reckon authority rests with the people who live in a place- and if they decide its official name has a syllable too many we should defer to them. Trottiscliffe also seems to be known as Coldrum (with the names being more or less interchangeable). This is a historied place, lying in the foothills of the North Downs- with the Pilgrim's Way running along the ridge above the village. Greater London is only a hop, skip and jump away but you'd never guess. The whole area feels shut away, secret- with megaliths and abandoned medieval villages- and roads designed to take nothing wider or faster than a hay cart.
This is the tower of Ss Peter and Paul, Trottiscliffe. Peter and Paul is a very common dedication in Kent. I don't know why. Perhaps (and this is just a guess) the prominence of these two very Roman saints has something to do with St Augustine- who evangelised Kent in the 6th century- wanting to impress his converts with the primacy of the Roman See- which was sponsoring him.
Macey who lives in the area says Trottiscliffe is properly pronounced the way it's spelled and it's only the locals who call it Trosley, but I reckon authority rests with the people who live in a place- and if they decide its official name has a syllable too many we should defer to them. Trottiscliffe also seems to be known as Coldrum (with the names being more or less interchangeable). This is a historied place, lying in the foothills of the North Downs- with the Pilgrim's Way running along the ridge above the village. Greater London is only a hop, skip and jump away but you'd never guess. The whole area feels shut away, secret- with megaliths and abandoned medieval villages- and roads designed to take nothing wider or faster than a hay cart.
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Date: 2019-01-12 02:18 pm (UTC)It's like saying that Lympne is pronounce limp knee rather limm.
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Date: 2019-01-12 04:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-12 06:09 pm (UTC)Meopham and Wrotham anyone? :o)
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Date: 2019-01-12 10:44 pm (UTC)So if you don't mind my asking --- and this is a serious question, not being facetious --- how do you tell the proper way to pronounce a place name or personal name in Britain? Sometimes I can see how a prounciation shifter --- Featherstonehaugh to Festonhay --- but sometimes I juat can't wrap my head around it. Is there rhyme and reason to it, or is it something you just kind of have to grow up with?
(Signed, someone who comes from a region with names like Puyallup, Sequim, and Williamette, which are pronounced, respectively, Pyoo-wallop, Skwim, and Will-AM-mit. You kind of have to have grown up with it.)
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Date: 2019-01-13 09:07 am (UTC)It's my belief that Featherstonehaugh was always pronounced Festonhay- and the over-elaborate spelling is the result of some early scribe's attempt to transcribe the sounds in a time when there were no guidelines. Early English spelling was a free for all.
As R.C. Churchill notes (I'm quoting from Wikipedia)
The name of Sir Walter Raleigh was written by his contemporaries either Raleigh, Raliegh, Ralegh, Raghley, Rawley, Rawly, Rawlie, Rawleigh, Raulighe, Raughlie, or Rayly. The name of Thomas Dekker was written either Dekker, Decker, Deckar, Deckers, Dicker, Dickers, Dyckers, or (interestingly enough) Dickens
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Date: 2019-01-13 11:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-13 12:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-13 09:04 pm (UTC)I know that spelling was all over the map as late as Jane Austen's time, and I also know that pronunciations not only varied locally but from one centuty to another. So I guess it does make sense that there are no rules.
The name thing that gets me in the liver every time is that a thousand years ago the nicknames for Matilda were Maud, Mald, and Mold. How the hell do you get from Matilda to MOLD?