Being Religious

[poliphilo]

It is said of one of the London bombers that he had recently "become more religious."

I grew up in a society where "religious" was always a praise word.

Going to church a lot, being a pal of the vicar's, helping to run some militaristic church youth group- these were all, in and of themselves, things worthy of praise. They were moral. They were good.

Morality and religion were all scrambled together. You could be sour, nasty, intolerant, ignorant, snobbish, small-minded, cruel, power-mad, not to be trusted round children, but if you were also "religious" you were automatically on the side of the angels.

It has taken me most of my life to undo this early conditioning.

And to realise that "being religious" is just a compulsion, taste or hobby like any other- and that "religious" people are no more to be counted on for moral behaviour than football supporters or stamp collectors or any other gang or group.

Comments

[cdpoint.livejournal.com]

It's always the bloody people that ruin a religion.

Ergo, the best religion is one with no followers.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

If you read the gospels as a text full of morally provocative- not to say- cheeky statements, that's fine, but if you then try to convert them into a rule book and raise an organisation on the back of that rulebook- well, you're in exactly the sort of mess we're in at present....

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

Rule book--yes.

Religious feelings can be very distracting and misleading (that is expounding the obvious, I know), which is why once feelings are involved one must revive them to feel religious again.

I understand that people being lured into the Moonies (whatever happened to that cult?) were kept up late at night and given brownies and hot chocolate (caffeine) and made to exercise until they were jangled and exhausted and open to anything.

However, one can't just be overtaken--there's a component of interest, like a little ember that is fanned.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I became a charismatic Christian for a while. It was all down to meeting a girl on a train. She was a lot happier than I was and I wanted whatever it was she had.

Also she was rather pretty.

[sunfell.livejournal.com]

This might sound awful, but of late- in both Islamic and Christian senses- 'getting religious' is almost akin to becoming mentally ill. With the aggressive recruiting some of these churches (and mosques) do, where they suck in newbies and spit out fanatics, 'getting religious' is rapidly becoming a negative thing.

In my own life and encounters, 'religious' no longer automatically means 'good'. In fact, it means quite the opposite: a warning to mind my words and watch my back. The ones who are faithful and who do not wear it on their sleeves are OK- they are confident and comfortable enough in their faith not to have to get toxic with it. Happily, I know more people who are faithful than who are religious. I hope to keep it that way.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I used "religious" as a word with positive vibes until quite recently and was perfectly happy to apply it to myself. Not any more.

I guess the "War on Terror"- which I see as religiously motivated on both sides- is the thing that has made it obnoxious to me.

[halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com]

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances
3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : FERVENT, ZEALOUS
- re·li·gious·ly adverb
- re·li·gious·ness noun

How strange that words invested with so much emotion, when you boil them down to dictionary entries, become rather puny.

I've known some people who have rock solid faith - come by with great difficulty - but I don't believe I'd ever use the word 'religious' to describe them.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I think "religious" is in the process of becoming a tainted word.

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

I hope we are in a state of flux.

(Is that right? Perhaps a state of transition.)

For example, the hard-line Christianity being promoted by some Evangelicals is moving farther away from the original Christianity and is more and more rigid and hostile...

Our own church is dying--the survey sent out by our parish recently was sent to 900 families, and only 200+ sent them back in.

What will be next? Hopefully (since no religion can be entirely new, I guess) we will begin to remove the encrustation, anger, prejudices, and misunderstandings to find a new way to enjoy and wonder about God.

Without using "religion" as a way to justify killing each other off.

Good Lord.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The religious impulse is always going to be there. "Our souls are restless till they find their rest in Thee".

People are attracted to liveliness. Which is why the evangelicals are gaining ground.

The other night there was a TV report on the New Age and how more and more people are turning to crystal healing and circle dancing and all that sort of thing.

The New Age is silly, but at least it dosn't have very much to do with bombs.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

It is possible for a Nazi to be cultured, but impossible for a Nazi to be a great artist.

Is this true? I should very much like it to be.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Dali supported Franco. But I don't think he was exactly a Nazi. A lot of artists flirted with fascism in the 20s and 30s but I don't know of any
good ones who became card carrying party members.

Re: Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Pound was mad for Muss- which wasn't quite the same as being avid for Adolf. I've studied accounts of Wodehouse's Berlin broadcasts and the verdict seems to be that the man was simply apolitical and naive.

My candidate for Great Nazi Artist would be Leni Riefenstahl. Her Olympics film is awesome. But of course she argued that she never really supported Hitler, and the propaganda films she made for him were just another gig.

Re: Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I've always been fascinated by Riefenstahl. She was a terrific director. Serves her right that no-one wanted to employ her after the war, but I regret the loss of all the astonishing movies she might have made.

I think she was fonder of Hitler than she was later prepared to admit, but, to be fair, which of us in her shoes would have said "no" to the chance to make those movies.

Eisenstein and the other Russian greats- who made propaganda films for Stalin- don't draw nearly as much criticism.

I think you're right about denial. I seem to remember a speech that Himmler gave the SS, telling them what heroes they were for taking on such distressing but necessary work....

Re: Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

"I think human nature, as usual, is more complex and baffling and disappointing and interesting than that."

Yes. The Nazi leadership wasn't all Prussian duelling scars and monocles. There was a documentary about Goebbels the other day, with Kenneth Branagh reading from the man's diary. And what came across was how like anyone else's diary it was. Goebbels enjoyed country walks and thought Churchill was a wicked and pathetic liar and took real pride in his own achievements as a public servant. What struck me most forcibly was the utter lack of imagination.

Re: Enlightenment and Propaganda

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes- that's exactly the tone of it.

As the Russians closed in on Berlin, Goebbels seemed to lose all contact with reality- understandable perhaps.

I'm struck by the low calibre of the Nazi leadership. The only one of that crew who had something about him- so far as I can see- was Goering. The rest were ineluctably second-rate.

Islam and ecstasy and fever

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

A militaristic
youth group forsooth! seems a value judgment of some sort
unless it was Hitler Youth or something which
normally did not allow church membership..
at the least there is militarism and there is 'militarism'
this last used to mean 'something which I dislike'
But I would like to think of one thing to the side
but not irrelevant to the man becoming "more religious"

It is my impression that the religion of Islam has the
particular quality of being open to ecstasy/fever...
this impression of mine may come in part from having
more contact with the Sufi brotherhoods than with day to
day Islamic life...but it is not contradicted by time
in Istanbul or by other meetings with Muslims.
"Ole" comes from the cries of "Ya Allah!" as the excitment
of God as it were passes like a wind...In Islamic writers
a tendency to aflatus...all of this has a good side and
a bad side no doubt but in trying to understand what is
going on we perhaps need to be aware not only of the good
and in this case that becoming "more religious" in the
context of Islam can mean something like "contracting a fever"
perhaps a low grade one, perhaps not so low grade...

If you wish to say you Christians are disgusting and have
the salvation army or something, fair enough...
we are all human ...for worse as well as better
but I wonder if this is not a specific quality of Islam for
better but also for worse?

footnote

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

rereading I should add that given the ecstasy/fever
category one could also say in a better case that in
Islam becoming more religious might be like falling
in love but I suppose the case of this man to be more
of fever if not of 'falling in hate'

Of course becoming a member of the ethical culture
society for an ethnic I dont know what laplander or something
can also be a fever...not saying fever/ecstasy is anything
other than universally human but wondering if there is not
a particularly Islamic openness to the feverish?
just to share a thought yours
+Seraphim

Re: Islam and ecstasy and fever

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I was thinking of groups like the Boy Scouts and the Church Lads Brigade (both of which go in for uniforms and marching.) You may not have come across the latter, but it's an outfit that's attached to a lot of Anglican parishes in the North of England.

You could be right about the "feverish" element in Islam. My observation about Islam (and it's not in anyway original) is that it's a pity the Middle East never got to participate in the Enlightenment

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

Yes...I would think of militaristic as a
negative,that is to say with referrant beyond
the boy scouts and their wanderings in wooded
areas, it certainly is used as a cant word by
some people for what they dislike in society.
as to Islam I do not know it is just a thought...
and it would need to be opened out carefully and
with awareness that fever and ecstasy are both
not in themselves bad things(in the body the
former of course an effort at cure) and that
they are the experience of everyone too...
but something about Islam may be conducive and
if so it is a sort of tenuous knowledge which
can help in understanding our...counterparts
in the Islamic world.
as to Islam and the enlightenment, well no doubt
and yet let us hope it is all for the best in the
end...certainly Neoplatonism can be said to
be alive and well in Islam, but in a specific
world among the worlds of Islam, and that may
be helpful in the end when offered back into
the mix... but tend to historical optimism.
blessings and cheers
+Seraphim

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The Boy Scouts etc were founded during the hey-day of the British Empire- and are at least in part about turning boys into good soldiers. I've always been somewhat uneasy about the (mixed) values they teach.

I don't know enough about Islam to take the discussion much further. I know a number of Muslims socially, but have never really discussed religion with them. On a personal note I have to say that Islam is the one major world religion that has never had any attraction for me. I think this is as much a matter of aesthetics as anything else.

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

I also find Islam the most difficult to
see the need of in the general course of
things...so I have tried a little and the
results reflected in these.
+Seraphim
*of course, I think you have done esoteric
study, you know the whole school of Guenon
and Schuon and Corbin and so on in fact became
Islamic but in a very specific way.
However I do not care for them really at all
and their books and thought are not easy for me...
I belive for Guenon Islam is partly a retreat
from the Personal...

Corbin

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

Is it Corbin who says well Judaism is Law
Xty is Love
Islam is the seal of Creativity completing the triad

I would call that a crock using a perhaps yankee
vulgarism.

Re: Corbin

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I think I'd agree- about it being a crock, I mean.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that Guenon and co are new to me. I can't place them at all.

I can admire Islamic art and thought, but I've never come across anything in the culture that touches me here *thumps chest*.

Guenonists

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

the Guenon group called "tradtionalists" was and is a sort
of extrememly intellectual approaach to world religions
and to esoterism, not all were Islamic, Ananda and Rama
Coomaraswami and Kathleen Raine and Philip Sherard were
Catholic(Sherard Orthodox). Guenon's best known book is
the Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times (something
like Ortega y Gasset's Revolt of the Masses as an attack
on mass culture) they tended to elitism and Jules Evola
unless I am confused lost his leg in a neofascist bomb
experiment in Italy.
but in comparative religion they must be reckoned with and
also identified so one knows where this is coming from...
Titus Burckhardt , Muslim, Alain Danielou author of "Hindu
Polytheism", Fritjof Schuon author of all sorts of mystical
rubbish...

Re: Guenonists

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

The only one of these guys I'm familiar with is Raine. I seem to remember she rejected a poem I submitted to her magazine. Obviously she's a Bad Thing.

[pickwick.livejournal.com]

I hope morality and religion ARE becoming separate entities. It's the thing I find most frustrating about being an atheist; that people assume I can't have a moral core. Cos why would I be a good person if I didn't have a God telling me how to be? *bangs head against wall*

[saskia139.livejournal.com]

I try always to keep in mind--as a person who would, until recently, have described herself to most people as "religious", at least as a shorthand--that some of the kindest, most compassionate, most ethical people I know are also atheists.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Religious people are very keen to retain a monopoly on morality because if religion doesn't actually make you more moral it's hard to know what the point of it is.

[saskia139.livejournal.com]

It's that whole "by their fruits" issue again. Religion seems to make a lot of people hate their neighbors, despite hearing about loving them in church pretty regularly (or has everyone dropped the Summary of the Law from the Eucharist?).

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The New Testament is full of warnings against hypocrisy and judging others and they just seem to go over people's heads.

[mummm.livejournal.com]

I noticed long ago that some of the nastiest, most judgmental people attended church regularly. I really hope that did them some sort of good in the long run.

BUT, there were also some really nice people there.

You are most certainly correct, but hopefully not completely. I guess we need to see things in that light?

Note: I am really not very "religious". I believe in some of the basic philosophy but I tend to pick and choose.

I just like... good-hearted, non-violent, love thy neighbor type people!
*Am I a closet hippie?*

[halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com]

YOu are a good person. Isn't that what's important?

[mummm.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, it sure is. :-)

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

My point is that religious people aren't necessarily moral. They can be, but "being religious" is no guarantee of it.

[mummm.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh. I hope I did not offend you? I DID understand. I guess I just wanted to comment...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Offended?

No, not at all.

Sorry, my style in commenting is often rather clipped. I guess it's because I'm a stiff-necked Britisher.

Oh good!

[mummm.livejournal.com]

I shall keep that in mind from now on. :-)

Clip away!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes indeed! And what was particularly shocking was the way the Church tried to hush things up and, in many cases, simply moved the offending priests to other posts where they were free to continue their abusing children.

[seaslug-of-doom.livejournal.com]

"religious" people are no more to be counted on for moral behaviour than football supporters or stamp collectors or any other gang or group

Stamp collectors are particularly amoral. Profligate philatelists.

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

Groan.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this warning. I'll take special care to steer clesar of their conventions in future.