Agnostic

[poliphilo]

My sister-in-law's brother died yesterday. I didn't know him well, but I liked him. He was eccentric and counter-cultural and lived by his own rules. He was 51.

I have reached the age at which it is no longer startling when a contemporary drops dead.

Brandon wasn't religious. I don't know what the family will finally decide, but my sister in law is mildly uneasy at the prospect of having a clergy-person officiate. I did a Google search and discovered something I didn't know before, that it is possible to book a non-religious celebrant through the Registry Office. Excellent. I've let Ailz know that when I get called to the choir invisible I want a Registry Office Person to wave me off.

It's not that I'm Godless. I believe in God right enough. Though Goddess suits me better. No, it's dogma I want to steer clear of. I don't think anyone knows with certainty what happens to a person after death, and I don't fancy having some sectarian breathing his/her personal opinions or party dogma over my sainted remains.

Call me Agnostic. I think of Agnosticism as a positive thing. What's so shameful about admitting you don't have the answers? None of us can actually prove our beliefs. Faith divides; acknowledgement of ignorance unites. I know nuthin and you know nuthin- we all know nuthin together.

Comments

[dakegra.livejournal.com]

My aunt had a Humanist minister(?) at her funeral. The service was more about a celebration of her and her life than anything remotely to do with religion. The minister had spoken to Rosemary's friends (she had no relations) and got a good feel for her and her life. Told some nice stories about her.

It made us all smile, and remember her as she was. That's how I want to go.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

I was at a humanist funeral once for a girl who died in her 20s. She had one of those diseases that infallibly carry you off young and she'd laid plans in advance. People stood up and talked about her and when the coffin went through the curtains there was a tape of her singing to the guitar.

Most meanigful funeral I've ever attended.

[dadi.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more. And I truly like the "choir invisible". Choir singing is one of the great joys in my life, and what could be more beautiful than imagining an eternity of it!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

When I was a kid they made me stand on the back row of the school choir with strict instructions that I was only to pretend to sing.

I guess I'm tone deaf.

But I'm a retiring soul. I'll be perfectly happy to stand behind you professionals in heaven and mime along.

[dadi.livejournal.com]

Tone deafness and off pitchness is caused by our immersion in matter. Even as kids. Once out of the matter, there is only pure sound :) For everybody!

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

That's a lovely thought.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

I read a lovely blog (yes, that does sound like an oxymoron) by a woman who is a UK humanist celebrant...I have it bookmarked at work, I'll try to remember to send you the link.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

found it...realefun.blogspot.com. If I lived in the UK, I'd use this woman, she is amazing.

I'm still struggling with the fact that my mother cries every time I tell her I want to be cremated. She has some kind of attachment to the idea of a grave. And my, this little thread is getting morbid, no? :)

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. I'll go look at her site.

Since I posted this morning my sister-in-law has booked the funeral. She's got hold of a humanist minister (I don't know the name) and I've been "volunteered" to deliver a eulogy. I don't have to write it myself- friends and family will all chip in with their tributes and memories- but I'm the one with the experience in public speaking.

[jackiejj.livejournal.com]

Our choir sings at funerals, and sometimes the person is so popular the church (which can seat over 600) is packed. At the last major funeral, for a man everyone apparently loved, folding chairs were set up in the narthex and people were even sitting up in the choir loft with the choir!

I told my family: I don't want a funeral in a big church, because the fact that I have NO FRIENDS will then become obvious to all. I told them to find a wedding chapel somewhere, so my blood kin--people who HAVE to love me--will be crowded in.

People in our choir are always saying, "I want the entire Faure Requiem sung at my funeral," and some of them aren't kidding...

I want that, too--at least the In Paradisium--but then I worry about no one showing up to sing it!

Unpopular to the last: the result of introversion and a life of self-centeredness!

So I have decided not to float around on the ceiling and watch my funeral, as I have heard must surely happen. I don't want to see how no one came.

OTOH, maybe that's part of the Life Review! Oh, I hadn't thought of that: sort of a report card on how well you've succeeded in love and charity with your neighbor...

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I don't expect many at my funeral either. Most of my friends live in far-flung places (like Tennessee)

I haven't thought about the music I want. Perhaps a recording of the Palastinlied- a 13th century crusading ditty by Walther von der Vogelweide that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

My other most favourite piece of music is Eliza Carthy's version of an 18th century ballad about Captain Kidd, the notorious pirate. Do you think that would be appropriate?

My name is William Kidd
As I sailed, as I sailed,
My name is William Kidd,
As I sailed.
My name is William Kidd,
God's laws I did forbid
And most wickedly I did
As I sailed.....

The cheekiest piece of funeral music I've come across was at the funeral of a Liverpudlian relative of Ailz's. The deceased had himself stipulated that we should leave the chapel to the pounding beat of "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen.

[halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com]

Frequently I am very happy that suzilem urged me to join the lj community. Especially talking about religion, I have always thought myself to be a bit of a non conformist - I'm sure there is an All Seeing Power, but to brand it male or female doesn't seem correct. I think you said, quoting from one of The Books, that all Gods are the same God and all Goddesses are the same Godess. I think all Gods and Goddesses are the same...power? Spirit? I happily left my church years ago, and admittedly miss the choir at Christmas and Easter, but only because I love music. (Felt like a charlitan, because I was teaching little kids stuff I didn't believe)

It's becoming more and more difficult in this country, which was supposedly founded on freedom of religion (but we all know, was not REALLY) to be allowed your own beliefs without a great deal of outside pressure.

So...yes. Agnostic? Maybe. Pagan? Probably. Wiccan? I dunno, probably not but I do like a lot of the nature stuff.

But I also feel that is my business. If I choose to talk about it (here, where I feel *safe*) that's my business as well.

And, when I die, I don't care if there is ANY memorial service. The people who would attend are the ones who will remember me anyway. Is there life after death? NO one has come back and told us. Do we go on to another 'life'? Maybe.

But perhaps we just decompose and become part of the planet, whether we are buried or cremated.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I wish I could remember where that saying comes from ("All the Gods are one God etc....") Maybe it's not from a book at all. Maybe it's Wiccan oral tradition.

I have beliefs, but I don't regard them as sacrosanct. They're my opinions, nothing more, and subject to revision if need be. It strikes me as silly to insist on the truth of something that can't be proved.

I don't like labels. I guess I'd own to being a Pagan if pushed. But being a Pagan doesn't stop me also being a little bit Christian, a little bit Zen, a little bit atheist.

I'm so glad you feel safe in this space. I take it as a huge compliment.

[saskia139.livejournal.com]

I think that saying actually goes back to Dion Fortune and maybe got into Wiccan use through Starhawk. I know Marion Zimmer Bradley had Vivien, Lady of the Lake, quote it in The Mists of Avalon.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, I believe you're right.

I'm an admirer of Dion Fortune's. Her book on "The Mystical Qabalah" is wonderful.

[morrison-maiden.livejournal.com]

I have reached the age at which it is no longer startling when a contemporary drops dead.

I understand this, because my father (who will be 58 this year) is often feeling sad and shocked at how so many people from his high school class have died.

Call me Agnostic. I think of Agnosticism as a positive thing. What's so shameful about admitting you don't have the answers? None of us can actually prove our beliefs. Faith divides; acknowledgement of ignorance unites. I know nuthin and you know nuthin- we all know nuthin together.

I love that. And I agree. I'm more of an agnostic too, though my family is Jewish. I'd like to truly believe that there is a God, but frankly, I don't understand how clergy men (and women) can be so sure. Faith definitely divides, it's sad how many religious leaders don't see this, or don't know how to remedy these sorts of arguments between people of different religions.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I think the people who shout the loudest about their Faith do so to drown out their own doubts.

I was reading an article the other day which suggested that instead of talking about "people of faith" and "communities of faith" we should talk about "people of superstition" and "communities of superstition". Faith is held up as a glorious ideal, but I think it is much more glorious (and human) to question everything.

[lblanchard.livejournal.com]

I am 56 going on 57 and still find it startling when a contemporary drops dead. And I define contemporary as anyone under 70.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I'm 54.

The process of ageing fascinates me. I observe the changes in myself- mental, physical, spiritual- with a kind of awe. Hey, I never thought this would happen to me. And some of it- quite a lot of it, actually- turns out to be surprisingly good.

[halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com]

I'm 54.

In another three weeks (to the day!) so am I.

I have a colleague who is 63. She dyes her hair (nothing wrong with that, I won't do it but that's me) and insists on saying she wants to be 'cutesy'. She doesn't want to admit her age because it makes her feel elderly.

I like your attitude so much more.

I love Maggie May (my colleague) with all my heart, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to hit her. I guess I feel a little different about ageing than she does, because my brother died at not quite 41. Tends to make you much more aware of what the alternatives are, I think.

You can't do anything about it. YOu may as well enjoy it. The friend you spoke of in your original post, here, didn't get that choice.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

The thing about playing it "cutesy" is that no-one is taken in. I'm all for "growing old disgracefully" but pretending that you're very much younger than you are is just silly.

Unless you happen to be Cher. How does that woman do it?

[halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com]

Lots of money. She can afford things we mere mortals cannot.

My therapist told me this morning that people who do the kind of job I do...work with students...tend to be younger at heart. I hope that's true.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Being around the young keeps one young? Yes, that makes perfect sense to me.

[saskia139.livejournal.com]

Call me Agnostic. I think of Agnosticism as a positive thing. What's so shameful about admitting you don't have the answers? None of us can actually prove our beliefs. Faith divides; acknowledgement of ignorance unites. I know nuthin and you know nuthin- we all know nuthin together.

I think of this as being a very Anglican attitude. *g* Anglican theology is at its best when a) it admits what it doesn't know and b) it expresses itself as poetry (and music). For me it's epitomized in the famous variously attributed verse:

He was the Word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it,
And what that Word did make it,
I do believe and take it.

It's verse and it's agnostic and it's faithful--and that's what I understand as Anglicanism.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Well, I can't disguise the fact that I'm Anglican by upbringing and training.

[frankepi.livejournal.com]

i lean towards atheism, but i describe myself as an agnostic. i can imagine an awful lot of things to be possible, and there are a great many things i can't explain.... and the arrogance of atheism strikes me as all too similar to the arrogance of dogma.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

Yes, there are fundamentalist atheists who are every bit as intolerant as fundamentalist believers. I think the sanest attitude to take is a playful one. My friend seraphimsigrist (the orthodox bishop) has a wonderfully playful attitude to his faith.