poliphilo: (Default)
poliphilo ([personal profile] poliphilo) wrote2004-12-26 10:39 am

Bamboozled

Channel 4 boldly, and in the teeth of protests, gave over their prime-time Christmas slot to a show about how the Bible was written and edited by a succession of power elites and how anybody who thinks it's the unmediated word of God is stupid and/or dangerous.

I was taught this stuff at theological college thirty years ago, but it seems to be no more common knowledge now than it was then. The churches give the information to their clergy (fore-warned is fore-armed) but they don't encourage them to pass it on to the folks in the pews.

I find this mildly scandalous. It's nearly a hundred and fifty years since scholars first began to take the Bible apart. Their conclusions ought to be as much a part of the common culture as Darwin or Dickens.

And so should their methods. If we're awed by one text we'll be awed by others- and politicians, leader writers, newscasters, gurus and advertisers will continue to be able to manipulate and bamboozle us.

[identity profile] pickwick.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 11:24 am (UTC)(link)
Was it a decent programme? I'd have definitely watched it if it was half an hour, but 2 hours seemed a bit too long for me!

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 12:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought it was very well done. The presenter was this black pentecostal minister. He started the journey as one kind of Christian and ended as another. He wound up by saying that faith is about working it out for yourself and not letting other people "pull the wool over your eyes".

[identity profile] suzilem.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 11:38 am (UTC)(link)
When I was about 10 or so, my maternal grandmother gave me a Bible quiz game for Christmas. My mother made her take it back because it was based on the Roman Catholic Douay version instead of the King James and "That book isn't the REAL Bible!"

sigh.....

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 01:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I would hope that that would be less likely to happen these days- what with the plethora of modern translations.

The programme last night informed us of the existence of a hip-hop Bible and (my particular favourite) a Bible specifically tailored to the needs of teenage girls.

[identity profile] arielstarshadow.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 12:20 pm (UTC)(link)
If you know the title of the show, please let us know. Who knows? Maybe it will show up on BBC America over here sometime. I'll watch for it, just in case.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 01:05 pm (UTC)(link)
It's called Who Wrote the Bible and the presenter is Robert Beckford.

[identity profile] thewayupward.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 01:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I used to think, okay, after reading the KJV surely people can't take it all seriously? But apparently not. I don't know, I believe the word of God is perfect but the hands of men certainly aren't and well who does all the translations? Silly. Was it a good programme? What was it called? Are there any really good books on the subject - by which I mean, oh, stuff like who wrote the Bible and the history of it and everything - that you would recommend? I know some stuff but it's kind of picked up from articles and brief mentions in other books, which is no good really.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 02:13 pm (UTC)(link)
The series is called Who Wrote The Bible.

I don't know about books. The ones we read in theological college are almost certainly out of print by now.

But I see that Amazon are selling a couple of recent titles together at the knockdown price of $23.06.

They are- Who Wrote The Bible by Richard E Friedmann
and
Whole Wrote the New Testamant by Burton L. Mack.

These seem to be the kind of texts you're looking for...

[identity profile] thewayupward.livejournal.com 2004-12-27 01:51 am (UTC)(link)
Hey, thank you for the book recs! I am so pleased when I have something to ask you because you always have the answer I need. :)

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-27 03:32 am (UTC)(link)
You're very welcome :)

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 02:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Whoops- that should read "Who Wrote the New Testament"...
(deleted comment)

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 02:32 pm (UTC)(link)
People are afraid.

I always think of the dear old Bishop of Middleton (and he was genuinely a dear) who told me he never read radical theology for fear of it destroying his faith.

But I always think that a faith that won't stand up to the facts isn't worth having.

As John Lennon said, "Just gimme some truth!"

[identity profile] silent-mouse.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Would be interesting to compare the approaches to and conclusions of such Bible studies by Christian and Jewish (how do you make a adjective from Judaism?) scholars. Sadly, I'm not much of an expert, - I haven't even got a proper religious education, being a girl and all.
Once thing that strikes me - it's still considered a big No-No in the orthodox community, so I'm amazed to learn that you were taught about it at theological college! Then again, maybe it is taught to the more advanced students, but my feeling is that if it taught, it is taught as an example of lies that are out there.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 02:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I get the impression that Christian and Jewish scholars work together. There is after all a lot of common ground.

The programme made the point that the big divide is not between Christian and Jew, but between those scholars, of either faith, who are prepared to follow the evidence wherever it leads and those, again of either faith, who refuse to consider anything that might challenge their beliefs.

[identity profile] queen-in-autumn.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
At my seminary -- which is an ecumenical program at a Jesuit university -- both the "Hebrew Scriptures" and "Christian Scriptures" class address how the Bible was formed: who wrote what, how the texts were selected and excluded, and etc. The "Christology" class spends a lot of time on the various christological beliefs that were declared heresies, and some of the political manuvering that went on which determined which were accepted. And these are all beginning-level classes.

I had already studied this in a public university class on the New Testament. My experience was that finding out how the NT was put together made it easier for me to understand the differences and the reasons for the differences in the gospels, and etc. But a lot of my classmates (most of whom were young undergrads) were freaked out by the thought that it hadn't all been dictated by an angel whispering into someone's ear.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 08:06 pm (UTC)(link)
It freaked me quite a bit- at first- and then I got to find the whole subject quite fascinating.

[identity profile] besideserato.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
It was a nun, actually, who taught me the meaning of things. Not only is there a danger in those who seek to change meaning, but also those who change language. Traduttore, traditore, she told me. Indeed, the translator is as much as traitor as he who changes the facts to suit his theory.

She told me that the true meaning of many things was hidden, even from those who spent their lives translating in the Vatican. I remember distinctly her comparing two bibles and showing me that one had translated a certain word to "love" and the other to "charity."

"Question everything," she said. And I do. Perhaps that makes me a better Catholic than most. That or we are both raving heretics. I don't think it matters as long as one realizes that there are more "Mysteries" than any creator could ever have intended.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 03:55 pm (UTC)(link)
And words are so slippery. Sometimes, when you're translating, there just isn't a word that carries quite the charge of the original. "Charity" and "Love" are both stabs at the Greek "Agape" and neither is entirely right- "Charity" because it has come to mean alms-giving and "Love" because it has erotic connotations.






[identity profile] besideserato.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 04:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Sister Francesca was of the mind, naturally, that there were erotic connotations. She was one of the first to tell me that the Song of Solomon was nothing but a declaration of eros and that there was nothing unnatural in it!

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah yes, well the Song of Solomon is a wonderful thing.

[identity profile] besideserato.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 05:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, it is indeed. As well as many other books she showed me, many interpretations unveiled. All the while she told me that her choice to be celibate was her own and not one that equated sanctity, for sex had nothing to do with being close to god if you could not open your eyes.

Heretic or... saint?

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 05:12 pm (UTC)(link)
It's one of the most unfortunate things about the Christian tradition that it was largely created by misogynistic old men.

The Bible is, on the whole, fairly positive about sex. You would hardly think so from the way the preachers carry on, but Jesus has almost nothing to say about it. He is much more concerned with issues of justice.

And, of course, he notoriously prefered the company of prostitutes and low-lifes to that of the religious elite.

[identity profile] besideserato.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 05:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Indeed, the issue of sex, I think, has been largely mis-represented by (some of) the Catholic church. Fortunately for some of us, there are many renegades in South America and I was able to come out unscathed from the episode of my religious instruction.

I keep thinking that as a writer I should do something about this issue, but I still do not know how. Although I have had my chats with Mary on the issue. That is a story in itself: a few months ago, when I was desperate and weeping, I ran into the cathedral without regard for those present and threw myself at her feet, I screamed--in Spanish because we always come back to our essences when we are distressed, that I would give her everything if she gave me sanity.

She did: three weeks later, the tests for incurable horrors came back negative. And I went back and asked a friend, a history professor, how to make something immortal, how to give it the whole world and he told me, "write about it."

She is in my book. In her own strange way. But not just as I want it. How does a historian re-write history? How does one explain the difference between story and truth when one is also an author of fiction?

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 05:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, you can't force it.

If Our Lady wants it to be written She will send the inspiration.

And maybe it will turn out to be the work of a lifetime.

Do you know the work of Luis Bunuel? Deeply catholic, deeply erotic. I have a feeling you'd love him (if you don't already.)

[identity profile] besideserato.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Heard and wanted to read, have not done so. You just sold him to me. I shall go on and get him. A proper Christmas present from you! What lovely things your recommendations, dear!

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 05:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Excellent. He was a Spaniard, but he did much of his work in Mexico. He made his first movie in 1929 and his last in 1977- and there are great things at every stage of the journey.

[identity profile] besideserato.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 06:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, sweet delight! Thank you for this gracious boon!

[identity profile] dakegra.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 06:36 pm (UTC)(link)
damn, I missed that. The one thing I actually *wanted* to see too..

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2004-12-26 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)
It's being repeated on Tuesday (actually Wednesday morning) at 1.25....

[identity profile] dakegra.livejournal.com 2004-12-27 02:06 pm (UTC)(link)
excellent, thanks!