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poliphilo ([personal profile] poliphilo) wrote2007-01-15 10:26 am

There And Back Again

If you live as I do on the borders of East Lancashire, West Yorkshire is foreign parts. A mere six centuries ago there was  a war between the so-called House of Lancaster and the so-called House of York and- as those of you who live on either side of the Mason-Dixon line can attest- these things never wholly die away. Stories- probably apochryphal- are told of streams in the  Pennine borderlands running red with blood. For all that our subsequent histories- centuries of sheepy goodness followed by the bouleversement of the industrial revolution- are remarkably similar- we don't trust them and they don't trust us.

Here in Oldham we live so close to the county line that people at the edge of the Borough- a mix of hill-farming in-breds and wealthy white-flighters- have been campaigning for years to have themselves re-allocated to Yorkshire. God, but I hate those people!

And yet, as always- as with England and France, as with Confederate and Yankee- there's a fascination that goes along with the animosity. If we want to take a nice, Sunday afternoon drive we automatically head into Yorkshire. It's prettier over there. They have tough little mill towns with Palladian town halls squeezed into river valleys. Yesterday we took a road we'd never taken before and found ourselves in a valley that had been dammed up to make a reservoir. The reservoir was full and the water was slopping over the top of the dam and sliding down the hundred feet of slithery wall like- like an incoming tide that had been stood on end.  It was marvellous.  I found a gap in the fence and trekked to the foot of the falls and took photos and got the spray in my face and then all but gave myself a heart attack climbing back up to the road. Lancashire has nothing to show like that. 

We wound up in a place called Sowerby Bridge. Now, that's another thing they've got.: place names. Our towns have names like Oldham, Rochdale, Littleborough, Burnley; There's no oomph to them. But Sowerby Bridge- there's a guy in Dickens called Sowerby; he's an undertaker. And a mean, sour, tight-fisted, little, twisted bastard ( a typical Yorkshire man in fact). Sowerby Bridge: It's onomatoepaic; it expresses something about the soul of the place.

And on the way back we passed a fingerpost pointing to places called Lumbutts and Manikinholes. No doubt these are wholly disappointing, blink-and -you'll-miss-them agglomerations of council houses and service stations, but the names, the names! 

Which brings us to poets. West Yorkshire breeds 'em . This is Bronte country. Also the stomping ground of the unspeakable Ted Hughes. I don't like him, but no-one has expressed this damp, craggy, cruel landscape as vividly as he did. And his sometime wife, Sylvia Plath,  is buried here. On a windy hillside In a place called Mytholmroyd. Pause to savour and deconstruct that name. 

I'm glad to come home. We're less melodramatic over here. East Lancs is real and West Yorkshire isn't quite.  Here's where the humans live and over there- well, what species do creatures like Heathcliff and Ted Hughes belong to?  It was in some god-forsaken corner of West Yorkshire that the American Werewolf got the bite that turned him feral.  But there's envy mixed up in it. Why can't we have a dam like that? Would they miss a crag or two? Let's go dig up Sylvia Plath and bring her home to civilisation.

[identity profile] baritonejeff.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)
My Lord, what an evocative post!

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 01:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks.

[identity profile] shullie.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 01:03 pm (UTC)(link)
fabulous post...

I'm a South Yorkshire lass...with a dash of Derbyshire borders thrown in... and as beautiful as West/North Yorks is... them there folk ar reight forign - a different tribe all together!

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 01:40 pm (UTC)(link)
It's amazing ( and reassuring) that in such a small island- and in spite of all that's happened- we still have these huge regional and tribal differences.

[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 01:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I believe that a certain amount of North/South rivalry preceded the so-called Wars of the Roses. Certainly one glum chronicler referred to Margaret of Anjou's troops as being from the North, "whence every evil comes."

Richard Duke of York's family seat was in barely-Northampton -- Fotheringhay, near the border of Cambridgeshire -- the northern connections, I believe, were more from his inlaws, the Nevilles.

The battle of Towton (1461, if memory serves) is purported to have resulted in 28,000 slain. That's probably a bit of an exaggeration, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to envision hundreds or thousands of panicked Lancastrians being driven down the hill to the flooded Cock Beck and the stream running red with blood. Doesn't take all that much blood to turn the water red.

Some photos --

Fotheringhay:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alistairandrachel/208373527/

Towton:
http://www.r3.org/archives/ricardian_britain/towton/index.html

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 02:10 pm (UTC)(link)
This is more North-North rivalry; The folk to the West of the Pennines (that's us) being at odds with the folk to the East.

Even today the Pennines present quite a barrier. OK, you can get through them in a car or train in about 20 minutes- but look out the window and that's a wasteland out there.

I don't think the War between the Lancastrians and the Yorkists was ever really a war between the two counties, but it's remembered as such. And the counties still use the red and white roses as their emblems. As I drive up into the hills I pass a sign surmounted by a white rose, "welcoming" me to West Yorkshire. It feels like a challenge.

Thanks for the photos. You can feel the chill. I'd like to visit Towton. Have you seen the TV film about the archaeology of the battlefield- "Blood Red Roses"? It contains marvellously graphic reenactments of the fighting and (rightly) won awards.

[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 02:56 pm (UTC)(link)
No, I haven't seen Blood Red Roses, but I've heard quite a bit about it.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 04:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I recommend it- highly. I wonder if it's out on DVD?

[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Heh. Our Towton photos (all the ones at the top) were taken in July. It wasn't chilly but it wasn't what you call warm, either. The wind really howls.

As I think about it, the Stanleys hailed from Lancashire and the Nevilles from the North Riding. That would explain a lot about Bosworth, wouldn't it?

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 05:04 pm (UTC)(link)
July, eh? Well that's the famous English weather for you!

An interesting point that- about the Stanleys and Nevilles. Do historians factor in regional loyalties and animosities when they consider the politics of the middle ages?



[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Possibly more to the point, they consider the affinities of the great magnates and the geographic distributions thereof. During Richard III's time as duke of Gloucester, there were enormous jockeyings among the Nevilles, the [blanking on the family name but it's the earl of Northumberland], and the Stanleys, all kept in uneasy balance by Richard. I suspect they were all seriously discomfited to find that he didn't plan on relinquishing his hold on the North when he became king so they'd not get a shot at northern hegemony on their own.

Heaps of stuff on the "loyalty, lordship, and law" theme. You could start with Pollard, A. J., _North-Eastern England during the Wars of the Roses._

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 05:47 pm (UTC)(link)
This stuff reminds me of Iraq- and Afghanistan. Warlords jockeying for position, rulers who can't count on the loyalty of their supposed supporters.

[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 05:26 pm (UTC)(link)
P.S. Rosemary Horrox, in _Richard III: A Study in Service,_ makes a compelling case that Richard failed in winning the loyalties of southerners such as the men of Kent and resorted, increasingly, to the "plantation" of new overlords from the north, on whose loyalties he felt he could rely. That in turn bred more than a little resentment, with the result that by Bosworth his list of reliable allies was growing, as Elrond put it in the first LOTR film, "thin."

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
There's a blankness between the South and North of England even now. I grew regarding Northerners as barbarians. Now I've swapped sides (like the Stanleys) and regard Southerners as over-privileged twits.

[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I've just spent the afternoon in the eleventh century, finding and photocopying some stuff on the historical Macbeth for my niece. Seven successive kings did not die in their beds...

[identity profile] saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 03:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you so much. Your photos are fascinating.

[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Oooh, let me clarify quickly. The Flickr photo was one I searched for -- my own photos of Fotheringhay aren't especially distinguished.

Some of the Towton photos were my husband's; the ones from other sources, such as the panorama of the Cock Beck in flood, are well marked, I think.

[identity profile] saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 03:30 pm (UTC)(link)
They are still fascinationg AND I (still) thank you for posting them.

[identity profile] halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 01:56 pm (UTC)(link)
oh, crap, leave Sylvia where she is. Civilized she may have been, but just barely.

We have regional rivalries here in the same city - our school can beat your school at basketball, football, baseball, etc because "you kids are a bunch of rich spoiled sissies and we are all the children of blue collar workers and know how to play this game the way it should be played."

Which doesn't take away from the fact that I would really like to see your part of England. And the part you drove through, yesterday.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 02:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Ted Hughes had two women commit suicide on his watch. I think he was a humourless, self-important bastard. I'm one of those who would quite like to see The "Hughes" scratched off Sylvia's headstone.

She was the better poet I think.





[identity profile] halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 02:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, I think she was, too.

But her poetry is not to my taste so much.

[identity profile] four-thorns.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 06:17 pm (UTC)(link)
cmon... are you sure you're not just jealous she was a massachusetts girl and not a new yorker? :)

[identity profile] halfmoon-mollie.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Her poetry always pushes me in a direction that I prefer not to go. Maybe it's because I know she was clinically depressed, and I read stuff into it, I don't know.

[identity profile] saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
....and a sanctimonious poseur! Let Yorkshire have him. I don't think Americans can really understand the underpinnings of history that make Europeans what they are.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 04:55 pm (UTC)(link)
"I don't think Americans can really understand the underpinnings of history that make Europeans what they are."

We don't always understand them ourselves. We just feel the consequences of things that happened in the far distant past.

[identity profile] saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 07:43 pm (UTC)(link)
That's what I think I meant - living in Europe we have to be aware of the centuries of events which go into creating what ever it is that is the 'now' I don't thik you can live here without being aware of the weight of the history that is around us and under us and in us.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 09:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I couldn't agree more.

I live in a house that's nearly a hundred years old. The ground underneath it is full of 19th century mine-workings.

I walk to the end of our street and I'm on Honeywell Lane- a name which probably indicates the presence somewhere in the area of a medieval holy well.

Honeywell Lane is a Roman road...

Transplanted Englishmen

[identity profile] bodhibird.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I live in Maryland. If you drive north on York Road, which overlaps with Interstate 83 for a good stretch, you will cross the border into Pennsylvania. Not so far into Pennsylvania, you'll come to a place where the road splits. Go right, and you'll enter York, Pennsylvania. Go left, and it will be Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

Just names. No history.

Re: Transplanted Englishmen

[identity profile] lblanchard.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 03:30 pm (UTC)(link)
My mother, a York County girl, said to me about ten years ago, "You know, York is the white rose city and Lancaster is the red rose city. I wonder why that was..."

Given that I'd been rocketing around the house fulminating about those skeevy Lancastrians since, oh, 1961, I was dumbounded.

Re: Transplanted Englishmen

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
That's great!

[identity profile] pondhopper.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Wonderful, wonderful post, Tony! Thank you.

One of the many things that draws me back to England time and time again is the regional diversity. Oh, we have that here in Spain although in my own homeland, vistas aside, the USA is a more homogeneous place. My very first visit to England was to Lancashire but north, to Lancaster itself. We haven´t ventured into Yorkshire yet but your post pulls me in that direction. Oh, the wildness!

I really need to convince Manolo that we should take road trips in England and not just fly up there and rely on National Express to get us around but we´re both a bit afraid of getting all jumbled up driving on the left side of the road.

*chuckle*


[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
My daughter and son both went to Lancaster university- so I know the town quite well.

Yorkshire is arguably the most beautiful English county. It's also the largest. So yes, you probably would need a car to get into the interesting out of the way corners.

[identity profile] saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 07:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I just might give you a tinsy-winsy bit of an argument there - the Shropshire -Welsh borders are pretty special as is the coastal area up near the Scottish boders - the part that may never be fully sure if it should be English or Scottish........?

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm very fond of the South Downs myself.

And of the West Country...

[identity profile] methodius.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 04:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I had a friend who lived in Saddleworth, Yorks, which was just next to Oldham, Lancs, and the nearest big town was Manchester. I visited him in the vac once, and loved it. His father was a nurseryman, and when people paid him by cheque it went through the books, and when they paid him cash it went into a shoebox under the floorboards. One day he took the shoebox down to a car dealwer and bought a new van, paid for in grimy and mouldy pound and ten-bob notes.

And then there were the famous Moors Murders, scary places, those.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-15 05:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Saddleworth is the place I'm talking about. It used to be Yorkshire, but then they re-arranged the boundaries and tacked it onto the borough of Oldham. It's been disputed territory ever since.

It used to be a very isolated place; Ailz lived there for a time and found the locals hostile to in-comers- which is why I'm not entirely kind in my account of them- but now it's filling up with the Manchester glitterati.

Ailz knew the family of John Kirkbride- one of the victims of the Moors murderers. Those killings cast a gloom over her childhood. Suddenly she and her friends were no longer allowed to roam freely.

[identity profile] kaysho.livejournal.com 2007-01-16 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
When I lived in Lancaster, I was amused to see the red rose insignia everywhere ... because the Wars of the Roses are even more a pure history-book thing for an American.

Interestingly, the city next door to mine (Pasadena, California) also has as its symbol a red rose. Anti-Yorkishness apparently follows me everywhere. :)

Although since it's a "conflict" to which I'm really not a party, I must say that York is a really lovely town ...

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-17 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm a Southerner by birth and should really not allow myself to be drawn into these north-country tribal disputes.

So I do my best to be nice to the Yorkies. Yes, York is a very handsome city. And what a history- Roman, Viking, medieval; I really ought to treat myself to a weekend break there, sometime soon.

[identity profile] liseuse.livejournal.com 2007-01-20 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I feel a slight need to go "HRRUMPH" being a proud Yorkshire lass (North, no less!) by birth. But then my mother and father are both from Manchester via Ireland and lived in Oldham for years.

Still. Hrrumph.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2007-01-22 02:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, yes- I'm actually a Londoner. My loyalty to the red rose is the fruit of thirty years residence in the Manchester area.