poliphilo | Rolling the Dice

Rolling the Dice

No-one knows what the future holds so no-one knows whether Britain will be better off in the EU or not. Every argument meets with a counter-argument and there are ghastly people on both sides. Who do I want to stand shoulder to shoulder with, Nigel Farage or Peter Mandelson? Tough one, that.

A vote to stay is a vote for the status quo- and since I heartily dislike the status quo I'm voting to get out. I know I may come to regret this, but...

...It seems the braver thing to do.

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I have to admit that the little England crowd terrify me so much (I have a lot more to lose to xenophobic, racist, sexist bigots than most after all) that I'm voting in for many of the same reasons.

Either way it's a shot in the dark.

Pretty much, I reckon although the little England mob decide it for me! Fwiw, I finally got my full human rights via the ECtHR, which they want to do away with.

The ECtHR is one of the best things about the community.

I know it's not an EU institution, but this lot'd have us out of it in a flash if we left as they think it is and then we'de see the relevant human rights legislation begin to vanish.

And guess what? I'd be over that bloody channel in jig time!

What exactly is it about the status quo that you don't like?

Personally I'm voting for staying in because the reasons for leaving seem dodgy to me. All the "red tape" that the Brexiters want to be rid of is actually very useful legislation protecting things like workers' rights and the environment. Also I don't trust Westminster to spend the money saved on the regions and I suspect we'd be worse off than we currently are. And finally I don't want us driven into the arms of the US because we're too small to make it alone. Remember that before we entered Europe, we had the remnants of our Empire/Commonwealth to support us. That's gone now.

Edited 2016-04-23 12:51 (UTC)

Not to mention how very much of it turns out to be pure fabrication by the Flail and the like. The EU maintains quite an enlightening list of Euromyths, along the lines of a more specific Snopes, giving the headline/story, and the reality.

There are fabrications on both sides. Lots of dog-whistling and fearmongering too.

What I dislike?

The corruption of the EU

Its vicious treatment of Greece

Its domination by Germany

The lack of democratic accountability...

I accept there are also reasons for staying in.

They ARE the reasons for staying in - to forge a left-wing alliance for reform and democracy. We can't do that by staying outside the tent, pissing in.

Even without any other factors in play, the fact this has only become an issue because of Conservative in-fighting, one faction of which says "trust us! We'll do better on our own!", when the entire party stands for gutting human rights legislation, increasing surveillance, and limiting personal freedom of movement.. doesn't exactly lead me to trust that their vision of a better future has much in common with mine.

Then there's the huge uncertainty that exit would bring about, with a two year window for negotiating all replacement treaties with every member state. Businesses tend not to like uncertainties, let alone such a plethora thereof. Individuals too: what of British citizens living/working elsewhere in the EU? It's possible they'd be able to keep their jobs, or maybe not. I've been uprooted multiple times because legislation dictates I'm not free to remain where I was, once the job came to an end.

There's been a cry of the "undemocratic" nature of the EU Parliament - yet, there, I can place my vote in a way that ensures it's genuinely counted, rather than following the tragic FPTP system. (Ah, the sweet irony of the Conservatives decrying minority governments, only to scrape in with a coalition, and now another minority)

Yes, but uncertainty is what I'm going to be voting for.

And I know I may hate what such a vote will bring. It's a gamble- a high-risks gamble.

It's querulous contrarianism for no good reason except that it suits your mythology of yourself.

And what's so wrong with that?

No, seriously, I can't say I'm particularly convinced by the arguments from either side- so I'm going with my gut.

Are you actually hearing the arguments from both sides?

One will see in the end how they gonna use which result comes out of that vote anyway. One also knows they're pretty good at ignoring peoples' will or voting as long as the desired result comes out...

This is so very true. Remember how the Irish had a referendum about the Euro and came up with the "wrong" result and were told to go back and try again?

I think this example was brought up in the media I read in the context of the Brexit vote.
It was quite a good example for illustrating how it is with the EU in such matters - they want to get their will at any cost and at any way, no matter what people say or how they actually break the rules they set up for themselves and others.
Well, one cannot say anything evil against that - who is in power to punish them? There is no punishment coming for them behaving this way. The ones usually punishing others for this is them...

No. That is not the way it works.

Get me right. I don't side with that behavior, setting up rules and when they bring you disadavantage you disobey them, but all others who disobey you treat with the greatest way of shaming them for it - but it's a matter of fact, there is no-one who punishes anyone in the Western world if they don't stick to the rules they internationally set up and they set up boastfully for their democracies. The only one who could still overtake this task, if there was no-one, would be the people to live in this countries themselves.
But they're not coming too.

for sure

I am with Chiara on this for similar reasons. Stay in with the devils you know etc.

And lock the door and throw away the key?

No, it's not brave, it is foolhardy. You will be throwing away so much of what British industry has worked for and gained over 40 years. What is the point of isolationism? This is not a poetic Sceptered Isle thing, it's about lives and jobs and peace and prosperity, and understanding and creating bridges with our neighbours.

You know better than this.

British industry doesn't seem to be in that good shape to me. What exactly is the EU doing to save our steel industry?

It's not as though we'll be pulling up the draw bridge. We'll still be part of Europe geographically and culturally- just not subject to the unelected bankers and technocrats of Brussels.

Belatedly the EU is dealing with the steel dumping crisis. And we are more likely to have some heft in that argument as part of the EU. China cares about the largest single market in the world - 550 million people - but is less likely to care about Britain - one tenth of that total.

Did you read my post about the pharma industry the other day? Every industry that exports will be badly affected by tariffs if we leave the EU. Think f your grandchildren's future if it doesn't matter to you. Give them the opportunity to work abroad and live in a more prosperous bloc. If we leave now we will all be impoverished.

Besides - the EU is a source of peace and stability between nations that have been at war since forever. That's worth throwing some money in the pot for - stability, prosperity, opportunity, peace. A force against fascism and despotic governments.

I disagree with your decision - although the EU is far from perfect I trust it more than Westminster - but I do agree that there are fabrications on both sides.

As Paul Lewis put it on Twitter, "Remain predictions are inherently unprovable. Leave 'facts' often wrong." So what we're (both) doing is turning our backs on the information that's put in front of us, believing it all to be propaganda, and voting with our gut instincts. Hardly the best way to do things, is it?

Call me an incorrigible romantic and obscurantist but going with my gut appeals to me.

I'm just a mere American who doesn't get a vote, but I'm absolutely with you on this one ... and I'm a total leftist both economically and socially. The EU is far from the egalitarian community it pretends to be -- it's an old-fashioned empire, dominated by a couple of countries at the expense of everyone else. And that issue will just become more and more pronounced over time.

But the separation vote will fail, because that's what the EU oligarchy wants.

I agree with you on both counts.

I don't think we'll be allowed to cut free. On the other hand I'm expecting the EU to collapse of its own accord in the near future.

What do you think about Scotland, in case of leaving EU ?

That's up to Scotland.

If Britain leaves the EU- which is a big if- I would expect Scotland to break away from the rest of Britain.

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Rolling the Dice

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